Gulfstream Intl Airlines Is Now Silver Airways

No, I'm ashamed of having paid for training at the beginning of my career. That was a mistake.

But GIA is not a PFT airline anymore. And for years, they have been hiring off the street without requiring PFT if you had the minimums. They've always hired off the street for direct entry captains without requiring PFT. The constant attacks on GIA are unwarranted, much like the attacks on GoJet in recent years. Both companies are just regional airlines. Nothing special about them to incite such hatred.
 
this isn't personal and not an indictment of you Todd, as I have many times defended the continued attacks at you over this, HOWEVER in the pursuit of accuracy...
ATN_Pilot said:
No, I'm ashamed of having paid for training at the beginning of my career. That was a mistake.

But GIA is not a PFT airline anymore. And for years, they have been hiring off the street without requiring PFT if you had the minimums. They've always hired off the street for direct entry captains without requiring PFT. The constant attacks on GIA are unwarranted, much like the attacks on GoJet in recent years. Both companies are just regional airlines. Nothing special about them to incite such hatred.
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...it was a Pay for JOB....let's be precise with this since the confusion about this issue is rampant....
 
Bumblebee said:
this isn't personal and not an indictment of you Todd, as I have many times defended the continued attacks at you over this, HOWEVER in the pursuit of accuracy...
...it was a Pay for JOB....let's be precise with this since the confusion about this issue is rampant....
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Well, on that, we'll have to disagree. You couldn't get yourself a job just by handing over money. We turned away a bunch of pilots because they couldn't pass the written and simulator evaluations. I'd say each group of applicants when I was there had about a 20% turn away rate. Guys just couldn't handle the 1900 simulator, and we didn't accept them. I know, because I was one of the guys doing the simulator evaluations for the company towards the end of my time there.
 
so are we really going to parse this?

Were they putting people into required crew positions ahead of people with more experience for money?
Did they then pay the people who paid to be in that position?

simple questions
 
Bumblebee said:
Were they putting people into required crew positions ahead of people with more experience for money?
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So was just about every other regional during the '90s. Comair, ASA, ACA, etc. None were treated with the same derision as GIA after the practice stopped. Seems like a double standard to me.

Did they then pay the people who paid to be in that position?
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Yes.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Weak.

Gulfstream will always be a crap situation no matter what color of lipstick they put on the sow.
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Why? Do you say the same thing about Commutair? Colgan? You worked for a very similar company at Skyway. Seems a little "weak" to me to treat GIA any differently than all of the other similar companies just because you don't like the way the former management did things.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
So was just about every other regional during the '90s. Comair, ASA, ACA, etc. None were treated with the same derision as GIA after the practice stopped. Seems like a double standard to me.



Yes.
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they did?

All those companies took money for a required crew position?

OK then THEY WERE PAY FOR JOB TOO!



If your issue was that the treatment Gulfstream got wasn't fair, then make that argument....don't try to obfuscate the facts, by calling it pay for training.

So apparently, you aren't really ashamed by the fact that you took a job from someone else by paying for it (not to mention the fraud perpetrated on the paying customers), moreso that you don't think it's fair the way you were singled out because the company you worked for was not treated equitably.

I'm starting to feel stupid for ever defending you.
 
Bumblebee said:
they did?

All those companies took money for a required crew position?
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Yes, absolutely. You honestly don't know the history on this? PFT (yes, it's always been called PFT, not PFJ), was a standard industry practice in the '90s. Virtually every regional airline did it. Some of them did it for everyone who wanted a job there, some did it for pilots who applied who had less than a certain number of hours, but just about all of them did it in one form or another. Some did it in-house, others had deals arranged with Flight Safety in a partnership on it.

OK then THEY WERE PAY FOR JOB TOO!
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Pay for training is a standard industry term that's been in use for about 20 years. "Pay for job" or PFJ is a JetCareers only term that is generally not used in the industry.

If your issue was that the treatment Gulfstream got wasn't fair, then make that argument....don't try to obfuscate the facts, by calling it pay for training.
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I call it pay for training because that's what it was.

So apparently, you aren't really ashamed by the fact that you took a job from someone else by paying for it (not to mention the fraud perpetrated on the paying customers), moreso that you don't think it's fair the way you were singled out because the company you worked for was not treated equitably.
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Not accurate at all. I don't care one bit about being "singled out." My regrets about GIA are about paying for my own training for a required crew position, which degrades the profession. I'm just pointing out that calling GIA's program something different than you would call ASA's program is ridiculous, because they both did the exact same thing. Want to work at ASA in 1996? Great, it will cost $12,000. Want to work at Pinnacle in 1999 with less than 1,200 hours? Sure, it will be $15,000. No different than GIA. But I don't see you hating ASA for all eternity because of it. Likewise, GIA should not be treated as some sort of scumbag operation today just because of a practice by its former management.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, I'm ashamed of having paid for training at the beginning of my career. That was a mistake.

But GIA is not a PFT airline anymore. And for years, they have been hiring off the street without requiring PFT if you had the minimums. They've always hired off the street for direct entry captains without requiring PFT. The constant attacks on GIA are unwarranted, much like the attacks on GoJet in recent years. Both companies are just regional airlines. Nothing special about them to incite such hatred.
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Okay, I know that I've been gone for about a year and a half or something like that. But GoJet's, Virgin America and now GIA/Silver Airway's are all okay now???

When I was a regular here all three were the 8th circle of hell and definitely in league with Lucifer. But now... they're all okay??? I thought we were supposed to hate them all! (Confused)

So glad I got out of aviation for nursing, all this crap is so confusing.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Pay for training is a standard industry term that's been in use for about 20 years. "Pay for job" or PFJ is a JetCareers only term that is generally not used in the industry.



I call it pay for training because that's what it was.
.
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The more accurate term, no matter what the "industry" called it is PFJ, we all paid for training, you paid for a job that is in fact what it was.

To be fair I wasn't aware that that's what ASA and the others did in the 90's.
Were they 121 outfits with required crew members then?

look I don't even care about that issue, if they (the other airlines) were then they were built on the backs of young hungry guys that wanted a career just like you.

In fact, you were as much a victim of that system as anyone else could claim to be...


but, as Judge Judy likes to say, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I wouldn't include Virgin America in that list. They're still a non-union carrier without an organizing drive going on.
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Yea well know more then a few who have flown them and also applied while they were hiring during my sabbatical. Isn't that wrong? I thought flying on them was tantamount to supporting them. And being employed there I thought was signalling to their management and others that taking their low pay and poor work rules is okay. It's just all so confusing because of all the hate that we were supposed to have for all of them. They were all bringing down pay, work rules et al. when I was a regular. But now I guess all's forgiven???

I can't keep up!
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Yea well know more then a few who have flown them and also applied while they were hiring during my sabbatical. And it's just confusing because of all the hate that we were supposed to have for all of them. They were all bringing down pay, work rules et al. But now I guess all's forgiven???

I can't keep up!
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Neither can I... Dooooooooommmmm
 
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