Gulfstream International Files for Chapter 11

[mshunter]

You may consider checking Cherokee Cruiser's join date; he was here for years, was preached to about places like JetU, and then he still went.

More to the point, he's come back to talk to us about how great these programs are.

Try not to waste too much time on him.

I did, I was just sayin'

 

[Firebird2XC]

You're a ticked off angry man who was angry even back in 2007. Nothing new here.

Actually, he's an insightful, educated and experience individual who often raises many valid points in a discussion. He has strong opinions, surely, but I've never seen him just muck about for the sake of causing trouble. He's apparently seen you do that here, and I've seen you do it elsewhere.

If you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation, by all means, please do. But please do keep the ad hominem to yourself. It does no good for the collective learning experience. I'm fairly certain that someone with the mind of an aviator already knows that, and I think we'd all be appreciative it if you lent that aspect of your intellect toward things. I'm sure you have lots of positive things to contribute- please do share.

 

[mwflyer]

I learned it from you dad, I learned it from you!

most of the kids on here, are too young for that one!

 

[MFT1Air]

Actually, he's an insightful, educated and experience individual who often raises many valid points in a discussion. He has strong opinions, surely, but I've never seen him just muck about for the sake of causing trouble. He's apparently seen you do that here, and I've seen you do it elsewhere.

That's true, but you must admit, he tries hard to audition for Dennis Miller's/George Lopez and many other nighttime talking head/comedy positions in many of his posts. :rotfl: He does make one "go deep" to fully understand what his position is.

 

[WacoFan]

Admit you love Cirri and their pilots or NO FAYE DUNAWAY pics for you!
I'd love to return to the age of oil spitting, fire breathing, noob killing, radial engines. Nothing sexier than hearing a Wasp come to life.

NEVER HAPPEN! I have an adequate "Faye Dunaway" section of the spank-bank. I was simply looking to bolster it. If I admitted to Cirri love I'd probably have to start putting men in my spank-bank...because chutes are just ghey.

 

[dc3flyer]

i wouldn't buy a type for a job there, or anywhere else. 10 years ago, swa wasn't the place to be, any other given major was, and none of those majors required you to foot the bill for a type on your own.

Southwest doesn't require you to pay for a type rating. You could get a job for someone that operates 737's, say Miami Air or something, and then apply to Southwest without having to pay a dime for the type rating. Not saying go through training and quit immediately, but once you have been there a couple or three years. Why is Southwest requiring a 737 type any different than a corporation operating a G IV asking that applicants be typed in said airplane?

tailwheel and or a mountain course, i'd say the same thing. the better operators will pick the correct people for their type of operation, rather than the correct ratings.

I wonder why there is no tricycle gear endorsement?



I think we should consider what a Pay For Job is. It is when people like some Gulfstream FO's pay to be an FO. They are paying to do a job that in all actuality someone should be getting paid to do. Gulfstream FO's paying to be an FO was in fact PFJ. Paying for a type rating or additional training (with or without a guarantee of a job) is NOT PFJ. After saying that, I have not (nor do I plan to) paid for a type rating. I also do not condone companies wanting new hires to pay for a type rating (like some 135 operations), although requiring a type rating and time in type is just part of the game. I also do not condone companies wanting to pay an experienced pilot poverty level wages (such as ALL regionals) which is why I highly doubt I will ever apply or work for one.


And also, I don't feel pleasure knowing a bunch of people may be out of a job (even though that has not been seen yet) even though I do not agree with Gulfstreams PFJ scheme. The last thing the industry needs right now is a bunch more people looking for work.

 

[dc3flyer]

You'll never see day 1 of class at SWA unless you pay for and obtain your own 737 type rating on your own time on your own dime.

Again, not true. You have to HAVE a 737 type, not PAY for one.






And no, as many of you may know, I do not work for Southwest. I just don't understand why they always get thrown into PFJ conversations.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Actually, he's an insightful, educated and experience individual who often raises many valid points in a discussion. He has strong opinions, surely, but I've never seen him just muck about for the sake of causing trouble. He's apparently seen you do that here, and I've seen you do it elsewhere.

If you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation, by all means, please do. But please do keep the ad hominem to yourself. It does no good for the collective learning experience. I'm fairly certain that someone with the mind of an aviator already knows that, and I think we'd all be appreciative it if you lent that aspect of your intellect toward things. I'm sure you have lots of positive things to contribute- please do share.

I have not mucked around just for the sake of causing trouble. It's not my fault this board has a predominantly negative views of RJ programs, and publicly happily states the demise of the Gulfstream pilot group is well deserved. It's all written up there, just scoll back a few pages. Other people should keep their ad hominem to themselves, especially jtrain. I try and be fair, share an honest opinion, and call out those posts that should be called out.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Southwest doesn't require you to pay for a type rating. You could get a job for someone that operates 737's, say Miami Air or something, and then apply to Southwest without having to pay a dime for the type rating. Why is Southwest requiring a 737 type any different than a corporation operating a G IV asking that applicants be typed in said airplane?

Miami Air required a 737 type rating in their list of minimums the last time around.

I think we should consider what a Pay For Job is. It is when people like some Gulfstream FO's pay to be an FO. They are paying to do a job that in all actuality someone should be getting paid to do. Gulfstream FO's paying to be an FO was in fact PFJ. Paying for a type rating or additional training (with or without a guarantee of a job) is NOT PFJ. After saying that, I have not (nor do I plan to) paid for a type rating. I also do not condone companies wanting new hires to pay for a type rating (like some 135 operations), although requiring a type rating and time in type is just part of the game. I also do not condone companies wanting to pay an experienced pilot poverty level wages (such as ALL regionals) which is why ai highly doubt I will ever apply or work for one.

Exactly, Gulfstream is PFJ, but RJ programs are NOT. Above, people are insisting somehow that by doing a RJ program, you are taking an interview away from someone who hasn't, and my point was it's a ridiculous assertion. And as MikeD asked, where does one draw the line?

 

[dc3flyer]

Miami Air required a 737 type rating in their list of minimums the last time around.

I don't really know when the "last time around" was but a friend of mine currently works there, was hired about a year and half to two years ago, that was hired without a 737 type.

 

[WacoFan]

Ok...here is Jim's Omnibus post to answer conclusively all of the issues raised in this thread:

1. PFJ is wrong. PAying for the proviledge of doing a job that historically has been a paid position is stupid and implies weakness on the part of the person paying - such as "If you were truly a quality pilot would you have to pay for your job". It puts negative pressures on wages not just at GIA, but wherever the sell-out FO's end up at in their next job. Do you think someone that was willing to pay for their job will really stand up to management in their next contract negotiation, or will they fold easily in exchange for a pack of Raman and half a tube of hair gel? Generally I would view GIA negatively if I were on a hiring board for this reason alone - going forward, can I trust that this person will stand strong during a labor dispute?
2. RJ Courses may be wrong, but they do not equate to PFJ in my view - unless it is a course saying "Pay me $30k and take this course and you are guaranteed a job or a job interview". If you are paying $30k for an interview, that is weak. If you are taking an RJ course simply to enhance a resume as opposed to getting other ratings you are simply making an educational choice to make yourself more marketable - people in other industries do this all the time. If you are simply making this choice it will either work out for you or it will not - as long as the person paying is experiencing the "risk of the market" I cannot question their ethics for taking an RJ course - you can question and second guess their decision, but not ethics.
3. Regional airlines hiring from RJ Courses and other zero-to-hero programs do so at their own risk. I believe the FO in the Colgan wreck DID have the time that would have satisfied the new 1,500 hour rule prior to gaining employment with Colgan. Renslow did not have that time prior to Colgan and had been a GIA alum. You can make a point that these people (Renslow and GIA alum), by having little operating experience outside of 121 equipment and never doing full stalls, etc have limited abilities in the cockpit as compared to people with more well-rounded experience. I'm not sure whether this has any weight at all, or if some people simply suck at flying as compared to others. I don't believe RJ courses are to blame for the degradation of the industry, but rather the regional airline's themselves and that business model and mostly the people spending tens of thousands for their educations so they can work for food stamp wages.
4. The military is clearly full of free loaders who are working the system to get free ratings so they can go to work at the airlines. Agree with this completely!!1! MikeD, Hacker, AMG and formerly Capt.Bill - we're on to you and can't be fooled. Don't give us this BS about "But I have to do dangerous things, live abroad (or on a boat), sacrifice personal relationships, etc...." - we all know that you did this for free ratings!!1!. All of us civilians expect a personal thread here at JC where you military free-loading losers can thank all of us for the sacrifices (taxes) we've made on your behalf for your ratings. A special note to OrangeAnchor here - you are among the worst of the bunch because you have enjoyed a wildly exciting aviation career flying neat airplanes and have now parlayed that into ownership of a Swift. All you had to do was spend time in Vietnam. FREE-LOADER!!!!!!
5. I still view SWA as NOT a PFT situation. They have pre-req's - simple as that. No difference between a corporation requiring G-IV time or any industry requiring "x-amount of experience plus y-amount of certifications". If SWA were making money on the type ratings - PFT. If SWA even gave preference over one Type rating school over another - PFT. They don't seem to care though, and it is just a requirment for the job.
6. Faye Dunaway is just hot. She's got these dangerous eyes and a smart/sophisticated/sexy manner. She also never played the "weak" woman - from Bonnie and Clyde (shooting people) to Network (conniving network executive) to Mommie Dearest (beating her kids) - she always played strong, powerful women. This makes her sexiness go up. I <3 Faye Dunaway.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Shame on who?

You.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

My God.

To the thread in general:

I can't believe in 2010, during a recession, some are still deadset on trying to justify giving a company $30K to play airline pilot for 500 hours.

And the business model, as we've seen with JetU and Gulfstream, does not work.

For the love of Jesus/Allah/DietyOfChoice/None, listen people.

PFJ = Assinine

period.

Hup Hup Hup... I don't care... If you can't get that thru your head, please stick to flightsim.

This whole thread should have ended at that

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Anyone know the connection between Eastern scabs and Gulfstream?

I don't think there is one anymore. Cooper sold the airline years ago, and I'm not sure that any of the senior management is still of that EAL vintage. Anyone know for sure?

Going to JetU, as you did, is not the analogue to going to graduate school.

In the view of the recruiter, which is all that really matters, apparently it was. The recruiters are the ones who get decide what qualifications are important and valuable. Regional HR departments, in consultation with their training departments, determined that graduates of RJ programs at places like ATP gave newhires a leg up in training and starting on the line. Therefore, that experience was considered valuable. I see it no differently than any other qualification that a company requires for employment, such as a specific type rating or a certain amount of flight time.

The older I get and the more union work that I do, the more it becomes clear to me that pilots waste far too much time trying to figure out what other pilots have done to screw them over. Everyone has their pet issue of how someone screwed them over. Whether it's PFT/PFJ, the UAL hiring preferences for minorities and women, military pilots, RJ program pilots, pilots who flew banners instead of instructing, etc., it's always something. So much time and energy is spent on hating fellow pilots for how they built their career differently, and it really does nothing to advance the profession. Sure, educate people so they don't make dumb decisions like paying GIA or going to work for SkyBus, but don't harbor resentment or hatred for someone long after they've made a dumb decision. Let it go. Your resentment will do nothing to advance this profession. What will? Doing union work. Showing up to picketing events. Sending letters to your senators and congressmen. Contributing to ALPA PAC. The list goes on and on, but it doesn't include "hate people that did [insert pet issue here]."

 

[MikeD]

In the view of the recruiter, which is all that really matters, apparently it was. The recruiters are the ones who get decide what qualifications are important and valuable. Regional HR departments, in consultation with their training departments, determined that graduates of RJ programs at places like ATP gave newhires a leg up in training and starting on the line. Therefore, that experience was considered valuable. I see it no differently than any other qualification that a company requires for employment, such as a specific type rating or a certain amount of flight time.

The older I get and the more union work that I do, the more it becomes clear to me that pilots waste far too much time trying to figure out what other pilots have done to screw them over. Everyone has their pet issue of how someone screwed them over. Whether it's PFT/PFJ, the UAL hiring preferences for minorities and women, military pilots, RJ program pilots, pilots who flew banners instead of instructing, etc., it's always something. So much time and energy is spent on hating fellow pilots for how they built their career differently, and it really does nothing to advance the profession. Sure, educate people so they don't make dumb decisions like paying GIA or going to work for SkyBus, but don't harbor resentment or hatred for someone long after they've made a dumb decision. Let it go. Your resentment will do nothing to advance this profession. What will? Doing union work. Showing up to picketing events. Sending letters to your senators and congressmen. Contributing to ALPA PAC. The list goes on and on, but it doesn't include "hate people that did [insert pet issue here]."

Agree. Well said. Add to that, as I stated before, that wishing other pilots out of a job when it could be you in the short or long term, isn't cool either. The best part, is those arguing how badly pilots from GIA, etc, are affecting their careers when those guys aren't even in an airline and even if they were, there'd be no possible quantifiable way to measure how their career was/were/could've been affected by anyone from anywhere. Am not supporting GIA management or PFJ, am just pointing out how asinine some of the peanut gallery anger is, as much of the angst is peanut-gallery based by those not even remotely affected. Especially towards things that clearly aren't PFJ, such as an RJ program.

 

[Polar742]

In the view of the recruiter, which is all that really matters, apparently it was. The recruiters are the ones who get decide what qualifications are important and valuable. Regional HR departments, in consultation with their training departments, determined that graduates of RJ programs at places like ATP gave newhires a leg up in training and starting on the line. Therefore, that experience was considered valuable. I see it no differently than any other qualification that a company requires for employment, such as a specific type rating or a certain amount of flight time.

The older I get and the more union work that I do, the more it becomes clear to me that pilots waste far too much time trying to figure out what other pilots have done to screw them over. Everyone has their pet issue of how someone screwed them over. Whether it's PFT/PFJ, the UAL hiring preferences for minorities and women, military pilots, RJ program pilots, pilots who flew banners instead of instructing, etc., it's always something. So much time and energy is spent on hating fellow pilots for how they built their career differently, and it really does nothing to advance the profession. Sure, educate people so they don't make dumb decisions like paying GIA or going to work for SkyBus, but don't harbor resentment or hatred for someone long after they've made a dumb decision. Let it go. Your resentment will do nothing to advance this profession. What will? Doing union work. Showing up to picketing events. Sending letters to your senators and congressmen. Contributing to ALPA PAC. The list goes on and on, but it doesn't include "hate people that did [insert pet issue here]."

Well put, Todd.

I know you have your hands full with "goings on" right now, but what an excellent post.

We have a "teachable moment" to steal a phrase that is used here quite a bit. And instead of it being a "teachable moment", it seems to be a lashing out by those who are a footstep ahead of those they aim to influence.

I'm not a fan of GIA by any means. However, there are pilots who did not do PFJ, and are employed at GIA because that's who would take them. They don't deserve to be crapped on. They joined a union airline with a union contract; and, in that respect, not all that different from any other airline, in terms of pay and QoL, that either operates or operated 19-seaters.

The PFJ pilots are at a crossroads. Will they listen, or even entertain, a persuasive discussion by someone who just displayed outright disgust and anger at choices they, perhaps, naively made? Or would it be worth the time and effort to curtail letting the raw emotions out and allowing them to read a balanced and well reasoned discussion? I know what persuades me the most.

Look at our own ATN, he did the GIA route. He is now in a union leadership position at a very prominent airline. He is not a unique individual in that respect. There are others that we could influence, and in turn, they too can give back to hopefully prevent others from making the same mis-steps that we have made.

Please type and get thoughts out. Re-read prior to hitting "POST". This is an issue where we can all "pay it forward" rather than lash out.

 

[MikeD]

Well put, Todd.

I know you have your hands full with "goings on" right now, but what an excellent post.

We have a "teachable moment" to steal a phrase that is used here quite a bit. And instead of it being a "teachable moment", it seems to be a lashing out by those who are a footstep ahead of those they aim to influence.

I'm not a fan of GIA by any means. However, there are pilots who did not do PFJ, and are employed at GIA because that's who would take them. They don't deserve to be crapped on. They joined a union airline with a union contract; and, in that respect, not all that different from any other airline, in terms of pay and QoL, that either operates or operated 19-seaters.

Precisely. Maybe those internet tough-guys in this thread, such as moxiepilot and others who aren't affected in any way yet feel that spreading hate and pre-judging those they don't even know is the way to go, could take a lesson or two from those a little more mature and with time in the business of aviation. They'll realize that there are some things in aviation that aren't as black and white as they want them to be, but instead are varying shades of grey.

But hey, if those guys want to remain classless, so be it.

The PFJ pilots are at a crossroads. Will they listen, or even entertain, a persuasive discussion by someone who just displayed outright disgust and anger at choices they, perhaps, naively made? Or would it be worth the time and effort to curtail letting the raw emotions out and allowing them to read a balanced and well reasoned discussion? I know what persuades me the most.

Look at our own ATN, he did the GIA route. He is now in a union leadership position at a very prominent airline. He is not a unique individual in that respect. There are others that we could influence, and in turn, they too can give back to hopefully prevent others from making the same mis-steps that we have made.

Please type and get thoughts out. Re-read prior to hitting "POST". This is an issue where we can all "pay it forward" rather than lash out.

Exactly who I was referring to in my posts, ATN. A good man and someone who has contributed alot to the industry in which he serves. I've seen Todd go from a seemingly union-militancy burn-the-house-down at any cost flag waving type, to someone who knows what's important in labor relations and works hard to achieve realistic goals, yet understands that not everything is as black and white as they seem when you're in the rank and file. I bet that those in this thread talking smack who didn't know his background, might just eat their words if they know him now on this board. And they should, for its a good learning point that broadbrushing something usually results in collateral damage, whether one realizes it or not. And harboring hate and angst, especially when you're no more than a "rebel without a cause" cheerleader and just following the groupthink of some elements of JC membership, is also wholly unproductive. Wishing that pilots end up on the street falls in the same category, and yes shows a lack of class. Someday, that may be you. For a few here, it already is or has been and still is.

 

[Callador]

Interesting thread!

I agree with the majority that is not a good thing to wish ill will upon others. This goes for any career, not just aviation. First off, not all the guys at Gulfstream are PFJ. Why would you hope that they are lose their jobs?

I agree that PFJ is a big no-no, but I am not going to hold a grudge against another pilot if he did it. I happen to know a person who did the PFJ program at GIA. He now knows it wasn't a good idea, and I guess he probably didn't do the research or go to a place like Jetcareers to learn more about it. If someone acknowledges that it was a mistake and tries to steer other people in the right direction, I would say that they learned their lesson and have paid there pennace. Stop beating a dead horse (with that praticular person) and move along.

The RJ program is not PFJ. I never did a program like this, in fact I think I took the slowest path to the ATP. Having said that, an RJ program is just extra training that you are paying for. It might not be a good investment, especially in our current hiring climate, but who am I to judge? Again, I know someone who did an RJ program, and it didn't pan out for him. It is still an extra feather in the cap I suppose. If a particular company likes to hire guys with the RJ program, then you will see pilots getting that extra training to be competitive. This is true outside aviation as well. A certain company in Milwaukee might like to hire Marquette grads. If a guy comes in with the same experience and graduated from UWM, well guess who is going to get the job? In some ways it does suck, but the company is looking to hire certain people based on whatever criteria they set up.

The whole Military free ride thing is beyond comprehension for me. I know some guys are just joking around about it, but I'm guessing that is coming from some people who actually do believe it? I worked out of KGTR, and we did a lot of the ALPS / IFS training. I also kept up with a lot of the ALPS guys while they were training. It was no picnic. We did a lot of mil comp and ATP's for military guys. Just listening to their stories reaffirmed this as well. You really have to want to be in the military to survive as a military aviator. I don't think there were a lot of guys who said, I hate the military, so I will just stay in for 10 years to get my sweet ratings and move on.

Enough rambling for me... carry on!

 

[jboynm]

I too am going to depart this thread. I admittedly work for GIA and have no shame in that. I will continue to work here until the doors close or the paychecks don't clear. I like what I do at the airline and won't comment anymore on the academy/PFJ/whateveryouwanttocallit. I will move on eventually to another airline just like hundreds of former GIA people have done and are still doing, even as recent as last week. Airlines need good people, they need good pilots. Respectable companies and individuals don't care about how we got our time at GIA, they care about our experience as pilots and our qualities as human beings. I jumpseat through CASS and open seats all over the country to commute, and I have always received the *UTMOST* professionalism and respect from *EVERY* crew I've had the pleasure of encountering, whether it be regional or mainline. (Heck, half the mainline guys don't know/don't care about Gulfstream's academy) We are what we are, we make our own choices, and everyone has the right to their opinion.

I hope we all get what we want. We wouldn't be in this line of work if it was just a "job". Good luck to you all, I hope all of you see the career of your dreams come true.

 

[jtrain609]

I guess it's simple enough to say I don't agree with you guys regarding RJ programs, and I doubt I ever will for that matter.

During the heyday of hiring 250 hour wonders, RJ programs were sold as a way to get your foot in the door without instructing, or without towing banners, or without building some experience in any other way. At the time, some guys were quite literally passing their commercial checkrides and within days they were sitting in ground school at a part 121 carrier. These programs circumvented actual experience and put in its place a hallow promise that couldn't be kept; all you need to do is pass the interview, pass training and then get on the line, then you can get some real experience.

But this approach cheapens the position of being a first officer at any level. You are, fundamentally, a required crew member who is expected to be able to bring a certain depth of knowledge and experience to the position. These RJ courses did nothing to help with the professional development of people who would become our colleagues.

Read that phrase again; professional development. It's a concept that is often given little more than window dressing in this industry when times are moving quickly.

At this point in the industry, 2 years after the country's near economic collapse, folks have different opinions. To them, a $30,000 course that guarantees an interview with Pinnacle may seem acceptable. Why wouldn't it be? Things are moving slow, and this is expensive anyway, so what's another $30,000 when it's spent on "professional development" that will help you get your foot in the door?

The problem is that it's little more than window dressing, and develops nothing but the ability to play monkey see, monkey do. To wit, very little of this job is flying a picture perfect V1 cut or single engine ILS approach.

No, the professional development that is necessary in this industry, as in all industries, can't be bought. Outside of aviation circles people make cracks about those that are "highly educated" (masters/professional degrees) with no experience to correlate their education to the real world. These people are certainly qualified in a technical sense, but to many they are just as useless as any other new hire. Employers understand this with the realization that those with higher levels of education may be more trainable, but they are likely not superior to other candidates when it comes to skill sets.

Sadly, I believe this has been lost on us. We are, I believe fundamentally, goal oriented people, and thus if we achieve the goal that we set out to obtain, then the costs are justified in our own minds.

But they are not. The true cost to PFJ, RJ programs or anything other than a structured training regimen that teaches the fundamentals and gives us the tools necessary to not only survive in the cockpit, but grow during periods of building experience, is that of our professional discipline, respect and ability to develop ourselves as professionals.

There are guys at Gulfstream that did not PFJ. Those guys simply took a job that did what they needed any job to do; pay the bills. Truth be told the PFJ program went away a while ago if I remember correctly, but it was so muted that most of us probably didn't realize it. JetU is also but a memory to many of us.

But in the same way that J4J, the flow down at Beagle any many other roadblocks in our professional carrer are little more than memories at this point, without remembering them we are truly damned to repeat them.

I believe RJ programs fit into that category; things we need to remember because of the harm that they do to us as professionals. JetU might be gone, but somebody else will come up with a fantastic way to both steal our money and our integrity in order to "get ahead". I contend that these programs do not put us ahead, they put us behind.

Personal opinion, of course.