Gulfstream International Files for Chapter 11

[mshunter]

Prolonging the time? Lets call a spade a spade. No one is prolonging your time to the regionals, except you as a pilot yourself. You have MANY ways to get there to the regional. Some choose to CFI, others RJ programs, some Gulfstream, others banner tow, etc.

And those that chose Gulfstream have paid for the opportunity to have something that others get paid to do, further de-valuing not just the 121 side of things, but the industry as a whole. WTG!

Honest time builders? How about the ones I've encountered logging SIC time in a Cessna Caravan when their prior company had no requirement of a FO on a Caravan? Or those Kind Air pilots who were logging SIC even though it was totally illegal and a SIC was never required, not by FAA regs nor by company requirement.

And just how many of those opportunities are out there like that. I can count the ones I know about on one hand. Your looking at less than 5% of the pilot market. Invalid argument.

Gulfstream pilots did not affect you and your "honest" ways of logging flight time.

No, you're right on that one. But what they did do was take a paying job and turn it into a job that you have to pay for. It's not a job. Do you think the people in the back would feel comfortable if they knew the person in the right seat was paying to be there?

At the time I had just a Comm-Ins-ME. No Comm SE, no CFIs. Now add the thousands it would have taken to get the Comm SE, CFI initial, CFI-I, and ME-I. The cost at the end of the day after 12 months would have been the same as going to Gulfstream. It is a personal choice. It's yours to make, no one is stopping you. I made my decision, took the plunge in 2007, and couldn't be happier.

You're pretty close to way off. The cost would have been vastly different. But for your arguments sake lets say it' not. What are you going to do when the inevitable furlough/lay-off comes? You certainly can't go back to CFI'ing now can you. So lets say you're out of work for 6 months to a year. Now you're not current, you've been slinging pizza's and you have to pony up the dollars to get current on paper, but you have lost your proficiency.

Anyway, back on point, you should be sympathetic to Gulfstream pilots if they lose their jobs. Most of their PFJ pilots have already moved on, and barely anyone is going through the program these days. Most of the ones that will be affected are street CAs and other seniority list (non program) pilots.

Don't patronize us and tell us how to feel. The last thing I want to hear is how some dude did a right seat program with someone like Airnet, or Kenmore, or whoever, because according to your profile, you have no leg to stand on with this issue. I spent 2 years instructing seven days a week to be offered a slot from a friend who was moving on. I learned a lot while I was instructing, on how to handle an airplane in unusual situations. I also learned that my hard work is paying off, and people are recognizing it. They don't look at me as a pilot with 2000tt and 200PIC. They look at me as a pilot with 2000TT and 1800PIC. Se the vast difference in responsibility there. 1600 hours worth. Not a mear drop in the bucket.


Your arguments hold no weight on these forums. We are not in favor of PFJ'ers here, and the companies that support them. And it's not just part of the company, IT'S THE WHOLE COMPANY! From the girl working the ticket counter or answering the phones, to the pilot in the left seat, to the guy who dumps the lav, to the person who's name is on your paycheck. It's a disease that is plaguing the industry and has helped bring the wage of a 1st year FO, and some second year FO's at select places to that, that some regional airlines have a policy that you're not allowed to use food stamps, or go to the welfare office in your pilot digs. Go ahead and try to justify that in any way you'd like. I can guarantee it will fall on deaf ears.



GOD, I HATE GULFSTREAM! Look what it does to me!

 

[gne in prog]

Which I agree with you in principle. But the problem that now arises (in the sense of the overlapping scenarios I mentioned), is how would this apply to, say, SWA then? Would it be in the same league, or different? Or how about any kind of training for a job thats considered a "pre-requisite" for qualification that one may not readily have on then logbook, but can go get.....say a tailwheel endorsement, or a mountain flying course, or a sling-load course, etc, etc? Where is that line drawn?

swa didn't claw themselves to the top of the pay food chain, the others fell down around them. i wouldn't buy a type for a job there, or anywhere else. 10 years ago, swa wasn't the place to be, any other given major was, and none of those majors required you to foot the bill for a type on your own.

as far as your other examples, tailwheel and or a mountain course, i'd say the same thing. the better operators will pick the correct people for their type of operation, rather than the correct ratings. i'm involved to some degree with hiring where i work. assuming someone has the minimums, we don't require them to have a type in any of our planes. we'll send them to get one. we look for the fit of the person. granted, two otherwise equal applicants, one with time in type and one without, the time in type will help. but if the guy without time said they would go buy a type, that would disqualify them.

as far as helicopter ops, i can't comment as i don't know enough about how that segment of the industry works.

 

[jtrain609]

And those that chose Gulfstream have paid for the opportunity to have something that others get paid to do, further de-valuing not just the 121 side of things, but the industry as a whole. WTG!



And just how many of those opportunities are out there like that. I can count the ones I know about on one hand. Your looking at less than 5% of the pilot market. Invalid argument.




No, you're right on that one. But what they did do was take a paying job and turn it into a job that you have to pay for. It's not a job. Do you think the people in the back would feel comfortable if they knew the person in the right seat was paying to be there?



You're pretty close to way off. The cost would have been vastly different. But for your arguments sake lets say it' not. What are you going to do when the inevitable furlough/lay-off comes? You certainly can't go back to CFI'ing now can you. So lets say you're out of work for 6 months to a year. Now you're not current, you've been slinging pizza's and you have to pony up the dollars to get current on paper, but you have lost your proficiency.



Don't patronize us and tell us how to feel. The last thing I want to hear is how some dude did a right seat program with someone like Airnet, or Kenmore, or whoever, because according to your profile, you have no leg to stand on with this issue. I spent 2 years instructing seven days a week to be offered a slot from a friend who was moving on. I learned a lot while I was instructing, on how to handle an airplane in unusual situations. I also learned that my hard work is paying off, and people are recognizing it. They don't look at me as a pilot with 2000tt and 200PIC. They look at me as a pilot with 2000TT and 1800PIC. Se the vast difference in responsibility there. 1600 hours worth. Not a mear drop in the bucket.


Your arguments hold no weight on these forums. We are not in favor of PFJ'ers here, and the companies that support them. And it's not just part of the company, IT'S THE WHOLE COMPANY! From the girl working the ticket counter or answering the phones, to the pilot in the left seat, to the guy who dumps the lav, to the person who's name is on your paycheck. It's a disease that is plaguing the industry and has helped bring the wage of a 1st year FO, and some second year FO's at select places to that, that some regional airlines have a policy that you're not allowed to use food stamps, or go to the welfare office in your pilot digs. Go ahead and try to justify that in any way you'd like. I can guarantee it will fall on deaf ears.



GOD, I HATE GULFSTREAM! Look what it does to me!

You may consider checking Cherokee Cruiser's join date; he was here for years, was preached to about places like JetU, and then he still went.

More to the point, he's come back to talk to us about how great these programs are.

Try not to waste too much time on him.

 

[MikeD]

swa didn't claw themselves to the top of the pay food chain, the others fell down around them. i wouldn't buy a type for a job there, or anywhere else. 10 years ago, swa wasn't the place to be, any other given major was, and none of those majors required you to foot the bill for a type on your own.

as far as your other examples, tailwheel and or a mountain course, i'd say the same thing. the better operators will pick the correct people for their type of operation, rather than the correct ratings. i'm involved to some degree with hiring where i work. assuming someone has the minimums, we don't require them to have a type in any of our planes. we'll send them to get one. we look for the fit of the person. granted, two otherwise equal applicants, one with time in type and one without, the time in type will help. but if the guy without time said they would go buy a type, that would disqualify them.

.

Its interesting to know the perspective your company comes from vis-a-vis hiring when it comes to this, and seems a perfectly balanced way to do it. There too might be companies that vary one way or another to differing degrees from this. I think the tough part is saying firmly what it necessarily "right" or not regards getting said training, etc, as what a company will look for or select from seems to run the gamut. Interesting.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Going to JetU, as you did, is not the analogue to going to graduate school.

The analogy was made because others are accusing pilots of taking away opportunities from them because one decided to pony up money and pay for extra specialized training. The analogy works.

closer to taking a weekend course at the local community college.

cherokee_cruiser, did you buy time at gulfstream? if not, why are you getting worked around the axle?

I didn't go to Gulfstream. But still, it's the principle of the matter, and people should not be cheering for Gulfstream pilots if they lose their jobs.

i don't think it's a moral type issue, but ordinarily, if you have to buy training specific to the job, it's a fairly solid red flag that the job is going to suck.

You'll never see day 1 of class at SWA unless you pay for and obtain your own 737 type rating on your own time on your own dime.

He's a JetU graduate, and believes that it's necessary to defend all PFJ operations.

Not necessary to defend them, but asking people realize the difference between PFJ and not, and also not wishing someone to lose their jobs at an airline.

 

[MikeD]

Just going to toss some levity in here......you're getting your blood pressure up too much!

No, you're right on that one. But what they did do was take a paying job and turn it into a job that you have to pay for. It's not a job. Do you think the people in the back would feel comfortable if they knew the person in the right seat was paying to be there?

Oddly enough, people still fly regionals knowing there are/were low-time wonders in the right seat with little overall experience. In fact, many still fly Colgan to Buffalo I'm sure. So whether they paid to get there, I still think Joe Six-Pack will still look for the low ticket price regardless. The average public doesn't care if pilots are paid or are paying, since they all see airline pilots as "rich" anyway.

You're pretty close to way off. The cost would have been vastly different. But for your arguments sake lets say it' not. What are you going to do when the inevitable furlough/lay-off comes? You certainly can't go back to CFI'ing now can you. So lets say you're out of work for 6 months to a year. Now you're not current, you've been slinging pizza's and you have to pony up the dollars to get current on paper, but you have lost your proficiency.

While I see where your anger stems from, on this part who cares what they do with their time after they're laid off? Thats their problem, not any of ours. Certainly not something to have an elevated blood pressure over.

Your arguments hold no weight on these forums. We are not in favor of PFJ'ers here, and the companies that support them. And it's not just part of the company, IT'S THE WHOLE COMPANY! From the girl working the ticket counter or answering the phones, to the pilot in the left seat, to the guy who dumps the lav, to the person who's name is on your paycheck. It's a disease that is plaguing the industry and has helped bring the wage of a 1st year FO, and some second year FO's at select places to that, that some regional airlines have a policy that you're not allowed to use food stamps, or go to the welfare office in your pilot digs. Go ahead and try to justify that in any way you'd like. I can guarantee it will fall on deaf ears.

Now c'mon......I can see disliking a pilot who does a pay-to-play scheme. But lets not start hating on CSRs, ramp personnel, etc......essentially collateral damage.....who just happen to work for a company we may not like due to their pilot business practices. You're better than that Mike.

GOD, I HATE GULFSTREAM! Look what it does to me!

I'm going tell ms.mshunter on you!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No, you're right on that one. But what they did do was take a paying job and turn it into a job that you have to pay for. It's not a job. Do you think the people in the back would feel comfortable if they knew the person in the right seat was paying to be there?

People in the back don't care at all. They click on the lowest fare, the bottom dollar is all that matters. And lets be honest, you are saying the person in the right seat is paying to be there, true, but Gulfstream pays them a fixed wage in the right seat while they are there. So they may have paid to do the program, but they are paid for sitting and flying as a FO.

In this industry, you have to pay to get to the cockpit. You will spend thousands and thousands on flight training and then work rock-bottom-wage jobs and 'finally' make it to a regional/major. Instead of paying for my Comm-SE-CFI-CFI/I-CFI-MEI, I decided to pay for a RJ program. The end goals was to get on with a regional, and I got there the same.

The arguments people are making here are weak. As MikeD is asking, where do you draw the line? Can one rip on military pilots, since they get free flight training, get quality jet time, good training, free training, and then they skip straight to the majors, bypassing regionals? Will you get on the parade train and say hey! They bypassed by taking a shortcut, cutting interview opportunities for me at the majors, etc. etc.

 

[gne in prog]

As MikeD is asking, where do you draw the line? Can one rip on military pilots, since they get free flight training, get quality jet time, good training, free training, and then they skip straight to the majors, bypassing regionals? Will you get on the parade train and say hey! They bypassed by taking a shortcut, cutting interview opportunities for me at the majors, etc. etc.

you tell the guys getting shot at that they got it all free.

 

[MikeD]

you tell the guys getting shot at that they got it all free.

Agree. You know whats funny though? Ive run into a few civilian background pilots who, even with this argument, still think that since it was their tax dollars that we were flying with as mil pilots, that we're "cutting in front of the line" essentially. I'm sure it's a minority that feel this way, but your comment reminded me of the few I ran into. While true in a literal sense, the dues were paid in a different way. Still, there are those that feel that the mil guy is getting an undeserved leg-up or that dues weren't otherwise paid. Thats the line I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

you tell the guys getting shot at that they got it all free.

Yes, they got it all free, on the government (tax payer) dime. It's the military. And lets keep the 'getting shot' stuff real. Dogfights are gone, since al-Qaeda does not fly MiGs. Ground to air artillery has been taken out in Iraq and Afghanistan for the most part. Most bombers will drop their bombs from waaay high and return back safely. Today, military pilots die more from training accidents than war.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You may consider checking Cherokee Cruiser's join date; he was here for years, was preached to about places like JetU, and then he still went.

More to the point, he's come back to talk to us about how great these programs are.

Try not to waste too much time on him.

Who do you think you are John? "Try not to waste too much time on him." Who are you?

Why don't you let people share their opinions and if you don't have anything valuable to share, then shut it.

To the others here, yes, I've been here just shy of a decade on this forum. I thought about RJ programs, and once I saw how anti-RJ program everyone was, I knew this was not a place I could get balanced advice on. I researched elsewhere, and did it in 2007. I got hired, everything worked out, and I have nothing against the RJ programs. That much is true. I left after personal attacks (esp on PMs) got too much. Now I came back, but I am not here to sell these programs. If someone asks me my honest opinion, I will tell them about these RJ programs.

 

[OldTownPilot]

You'll never see day 1 of class at SWA unless you pay for and obtain your own 737 type rating on your own time on your own dime.

Not true one bit. GO to CAL get your 737 type out of new hire class paid for by CAL, interview and be hired by SWA. Did not pay one cent (besides no health insurance for 6 months) for the type.

 

[MikeD]

Yes, they got it all free, on the government (tax payer) dime. It's the military. And lets keep the 'getting shot' stuff real. Dogfights are gone, since al-Qaeda does not fly MiGs. Ground to air artillery has been taken out in Iraq and Afghanistan for the most part. Most bombers will drop their bombs from waaay high and return back safely. Today, military pilots die more from training accidents than war.

All true. Their dues paying was done moreso in the choice to do military life and all the lack of personal freedoms it has. To me, it's different, not right or wrong, just different. I don't think the argument can be made, as I stated before, that a civilian can say that a guy who gets mil training is taking away an opportunity they could've had. I don't necessarily consider it for SWA either. to me, its just a method they chose. But then again, I paid my dues both civilian as well as military, so i can see both sides.

I'm interested in finding more of the "cut in the line", if you will, methods of things considered PFJ. And for that matter, what said "line" is defined as. Interesting discussion.

 

[MikeD]

Not true one bit. GO to CAL get your 737 type out of new hire class paid for by CAL, interview and be hired by SWA. Did not pay one cent (besides no health insurance for 6 months) for the type.

Thats alot of effort to go through just to get hired by SWA!

 

[jtrain609]

Who do you think you are John? "Try not to waste too much time on him." Who are you?

Why don't you let people share their opinions and if you don't have anything valuable to share, then shut it.

To the others here, yes, I've been here just shy of a decade on this forum. I thought about RJ programs, and once I saw how anti-RJ program everyone was, I knew this was not a place I could get balanced advice on. I researched elsewhere, and did it in 2007. I got hired, everything worked out, and I have nothing against the RJ programs. That much is true. I left after personal attacks (esp on PMs) got too much. Now I came back, but I am not here to sell these programs. If someone asks me my honest opinion, I will tell them about these RJ programs.

I think what I have to share about you is quite valuable, actually, and that is being one of the few people left on this forum that was here when you went through this charade before.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Not true one bit. GO to CAL get your 737 type out of new hire class paid for by CAL, interview and be hired by SWA. Did not pay one cent (besides no health insurance for 6 months) for the type.

Sorry, but I wouldn't burn an airline like that. I may have done a RJ course, but I will not burn an airline like that. I won't "use" Continental to get a 737 type only to go to SWA.

Moot point, Continental isn't hiring, and SWA is only taking guys from the previous pool.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I think what I have to share about you is quite valuable, actually, and that is being one of the few people left on this forum that was here when you went through this charade before.

You're a ticked off angry man who was angry even back in 2007. Nothing new here.

 

[jhugz]

This is by far one of the most retarded threads on here in a while. Military=PFJ , you heard it here first.

 

[MFT1Air]

Presently, I'm understanding (agree or disagree with me please) the market is swinging such that the 500hr + right seat RJ pilots are going away. Supply and demand. Kinda makes the short courses (zero to commercial in six months) simply an initial starting point. So now, you chastise companies like Gulfstream for allowing right seaters the chance for ~ 200 hours of SIC time. (OK, understand that completely) Now, to chastise the pilot for paying for it to now bring his total to ~ 500 - 700TT to help themselves become more marketable? Are they in any better position to find a job when you compared them to some furloughed pilot who has > 2500TT having sat right seat at a regional?

If two pilots have, hypothetically, ~3000TT looking for the same position, the pilot who has 200 hours at Gulfstream is a lesser pilot? This pilot has destroyed the professionalism of the aviation industry?

Yes, PFJ sucks. I think the business approach (management wise is sound), but from a pilot employment position, I think it stinks to high heaven. I can't/won't argue to the contrary. To degrade as "scabs/unprofessionals?" Naw, can't agree/will never agree.

. . .and yes Doug, I'm still "googling." I'm also STILL discussing this as a business case study with a couple of Rice MBA buddies. It's always interesting conversation. . .even when PFJ dies the same way prostitution will.

 

[mshunter]

Just going to toss some levity in here......you're getting your blood pressure up too much!

I'm going tell ms.mshunter on you!

I LOL'ed :laff::laff:

Thanks for bringing me back down.