SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Don't do it. If you don't think Chief Pilots/other hiring pilots looking over your logbook and can detect that you essentially bought 300 hours on a BE1900 then you're fooling yourself.
Gulfstream Academy--What am I missing
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Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
S40_flyer said:
If only the general public knew the experience level of the GS crews. I bet a lot would fly on different carriers.
at 250 hours nobody has any right to be piloting an airliner of any size.
E_Dawg
Moderator
Bandit_Driver said:
But so many people have no idea... all they know is they're in a Continental airplane that, for some reason, is a lot smaller than they thought it would be.http://www.continental.com/
Doug Taylor said:
Let's see here. Let me try to summarize please:
- I'm paying $25000 for 500 hours of 121 flight time in a 1900, and they're pay me $18000 to do so?
- There are no guarantees in any business, although if you have signficant multiengine time, overall, odds for selection are good.
- Individuals with < 1000TT are receiving job offers and some with > 1000TT are not being picked up and still bumming the streets even with guaranteed "interviews." Might I conclude it's not necessarily hours flown but the total perspective of the applicant?
- Fast track doesn't mean guaranteed employment. CFI time doesn't necessarily mean guaranteed employment.
Does anyone know of the accident statistics for Gulfstream in this "singular" pilot scenario? If I'm paying overall $7000 for 500 hours of multiengine flight experience, if my overall resume looks competitive, what is the downside?
One of my co-workers was interested in Gulfstream. She has 725TT hours; 600 hours multi and probably 550 of those hours in a Cessna 340. Just received her CFI, and she has her bachelor's degree (aviation management) with master's credits. To build hours, what's the downside in sitting right seat for someone like Gulfstream?
Airdale
Well-Known Member
MFT1Air said:
Dude the problem with Gulfstream is that you are paying THEM to sit right seat on a revenue flight! Does that not sound a little screwed up to you? They're not going to pay you $18,000 while you're paying them $25,000. I don't understand why some people don't think this is wrong? There is a difference between buying flight time, and buying a job/getting screwed.
When you go buy multi time at a flight school, YOU are paying for the fuel/oil/insurance etc. When you buy time at Gulfstream, you are paying for the fuel/oil etc. while the paying passengers are paying the airline, who is NOT paying you!?! Do you not see this? Why do you think so many people hate gulfstream and Jet U isn't any better.
As far as your friend with 725TT and 600 multi, all she needs to do is instruct (which means getting PAID to fly) for a few hundred more hours and she's at the mins for most regionals. Heck she already meets the mins for a few. Tell her if she spends $25k at Gulfstream she's an idiot - simply put. She could be flying right seat for a regional in a few months without spending any money and getting paid to teach people how to fly.
These "buy your job" programs are ridiculous. If you've got $25k to blow, go buy a block of multi time and fly across the country with someone. You'll have more fun and get better experience anyway. Then you won't have to pay for gas to sit right seat on a flight where the passengers are supposed to be paying for the gas.
SIUAv8r
RJ Commander
Well said Airdale. Gulfstream is a waste of time. Buy a block of multi time. I worked as an intern at Chautauqua, and one of the training department clerks was a Gulfstreamer...who didn't get hired after his 250 hrs in the 1900. Now he's scrounging for flight time to get a job somewhere.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
No matter what you say, some people won't see the sin of the Gulfstream's F/O program. There are ways you can defend it by running the numbers or looking at their fancy website and it's claims/results. However, there is no way, in my view, to get around the fact that it's just wrong to rent a seat as an airline pilot to build time. It's just wrong....
What if Delta did it? What if UPS did it? Would you think that was wrong? Or is it okay just because a little two bit 1900 outfit is doing it?
What if Delta did it? What if UPS did it? Would you think that was wrong? Or is it okay just because a little two bit 1900 outfit is doing it?
Airdale, Don't perceive me as trying to argue in favor of Gulfstream, for I truly am not, but what I am doing is looking at this without the emotion or "die hard, dead set against a 'PFJ' organization" point of view.
Firstly, it's never the money that is first and foremost in my mind, but the experience. Flying a $65 an hour Tomahawk or a $200 an hour Cirrus for my private certificate. . .It's NEVER about the money, and I never factor that in my consideration to do what I perceive is a lifelong dream.
I take that back. For years, I've always wanted to become an astronaut. If I were a Lance Bass "type" who could pay to "ridealong" in a Russian Soyuz spacecraft, would I? Heck yes. . .and a New York minute and I smirk at anyone who told me I wasn't a true astronaut! I went into space. OK, I don't have $20 million lying around for a spaceflight.
So, I'm building flight time in a Part 121 organization that, in the end, has my forking out $7000 for 500 hours. I'm gaining experience working for a small airline. I'm doing it in less time. Don't need the "fast track" cliche's
So, how long is it going to take me, as a CFI/MEI, to accumulate 500TT multiengine time GETTING PAID factoring in all the other expenses incurred to build that 500 hours worth of experience? I am talking experience and not simply time. I am talking multiengine and not simply 1 or 2 hours PTS flights too with flight students.
So, is the biggest problem the PFJ or the guaranteed promise? Help me understand this, please.
Firstly, it's never the money that is first and foremost in my mind, but the experience. Flying a $65 an hour Tomahawk or a $200 an hour Cirrus for my private certificate. . .It's NEVER about the money, and I never factor that in my consideration to do what I perceive is a lifelong dream.
I take that back. For years, I've always wanted to become an astronaut. If I were a Lance Bass "type" who could pay to "ridealong" in a Russian Soyuz spacecraft, would I? Heck yes. . .and a New York minute and I smirk at anyone who told me I wasn't a true astronaut! I went into space. OK, I don't have $20 million lying around for a spaceflight.
So, I'm building flight time in a Part 121 organization that, in the end, has my forking out $7000 for 500 hours. I'm gaining experience working for a small airline. I'm doing it in less time. Don't need the "fast track" cliche's
So, how long is it going to take me, as a CFI/MEI, to accumulate 500TT multiengine time GETTING PAID factoring in all the other expenses incurred to build that 500 hours worth of experience? I am talking experience and not simply time. I am talking multiengine and not simply 1 or 2 hours PTS flights too with flight students.
- Aviator "charges" approximately $9K for what. . .100TT?
- Sites advertising as little as $110 an hour in a PA-30. Don't I receive more experience in a 1900?
- Experience - does flying for a Part 121 afford someone the experience to be better prepared for larger airline interviews after 500 of SIC time?
So, is the biggest problem the PFJ or the guaranteed promise? Help me understand this, please.
I simply perceive this as "short term sacrifice for long term benefits. I'll elaborate more later.Airdale said:
My net financial expenditure is my having spent $7K. My return on investment is 500TT in a Part 121 organization. Is there a downside to receiving this type of experience?Airdale said:
My utilizing my co-worker as an example was simply to illustrate that she's been interviewed and accepted to at least three regionals. At 32 years old, regional airline employers took into consideration her overall marketability, education, and flying prowess and offered her positions. Again, she's got the money; she loves to fly. To answer the question on your behalf, it's because she's simply paying to fly?Airdale said:
for the most part, headhunters make the company pay for their services, not the employee....big difference between PFJ and headhunters!
the biggest problem is PFJ. the fact that flight schools offer "guaranteed" interviews doens't necessarily mean they "have" a job waiting for them or that they will be paying for a job that recieves revenue. it's just more of a marketing scheme than a downgrade on the profession as a whole (which is what PFJ is).
PFJ like Gulfstream is kinda seen like a "black mark" on the community...there are some who will deny PFJ'ers jumpseats or will give them just as hard a time as scabs - that's just the way it is because when your PFJing, it's like your pissing on the entire pilot community as a whole because your not following the "rules of working UP the ladder" like everyone else who works from the bottom up AND mostly because your lowering the profession by showing the corporate guru's that they don't need to hire "quality" pilots, just guys who will PAY to fly FOR them....Sav'vy?
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:
MFT1Air, Please don't try arguing in favor of Gulfstream...it's bad for the industry. Period. And, it will make a career a very long one since most of your peers will despise you, and generally make life miserable for your career. Do you want to go around your entire career trying to hide how you built your time? It's just a bad thing all around.
Just curious, where did your coworker build her C-340 time? Was it a personal aircraft?
MFT1Air, Please don't try arguing in favor of Gulfstream...it's bad for the industry. Period. And, it will make a career a very long one since most of your peers will despise you, and generally make life miserable for your career. Do you want to go around your entire career trying to hide how you built your time? It's just a bad thing all around.
Just curious, where did your coworker build her C-340 time? Was it a personal aircraft?
FLflyer
Well-Known Member
MFT1Air said:
If you're going to insist on spinning your wheels in the mud here, at least get your ignorant numbers right.
It's 250 hours (not 500 as you insist), and you pay $27,900 (Not $7K).
From the scum-sucking website itself:
Hours: 250 Flying Line As Part-121 Paid First Officer At GIA In Beech 1900D
First Officer Program Price $29,900*
*After receiving $2,000 in flight pay, program cost is just $27,900.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
MFT1Air said:
Dude you really have no arguement. Waste your money, its yours to begin with. Nothing can be done to change the opinions of those that think its okay to buy a job. Buy flight time, yes, buy a job, no. You say you aren't arguing in favor of Gulfstream yet you throw numbers out in its support. Make up your mind which line you stand behind.
The Corporate A-holes that run that company are racking in the bucks by having people with your mentality flying their airplane and passengers as SIC while you are paying them.
Here, let me put this into perspective for you using another job example:
I'm not going to PAY McDonalds to sit there and work next to a burger flipper so I can be a burger flipper too. Sure I'd be getting burger flipping experience, but I can go to Burger King and get PAID to work next to a Burger Flipper and learn how to flip burgers. Does that make sense? Either way you are getting the experience, but with McDonalds, you are PAYING them to help better their business by flipping their burgers. At Burger King, they are paying YOU to flip burgers to better their business. Thus they make a profit on your burger flipping skills and you make money from your burger flipping skills.
If you don't see whats wrong with the above senario, then I give up. And in fact, you should give up and maybe go be a burger flipper.
You say its hard to get flight time, let alone multi engine time as an instructor right? Well I am an instructor, I fly twin engine airplanes EVERYDAY. In two months I have acquired nealry 200hrs of flight time in multi engine airplanes. There are flight instructor jobs out there, you just have to look.
The more people that PAY airline companies to work for them, the further down the crapper the industry goes. They, meaning the Airline Companies, care about making $$$$. Why spend money to hire competant pilots when there are pilots willing to pay you to fly their jet? I should run an Airline, not fly for one.
But hey, its okay, got money you can buy anything right?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"MFT1Air, Please don't try arguing in favor of Gulfstream...it's bad for the industry. Period"
He's looking at what's good for him, in the short term. Not what's good for the profession. If you look at it this way, being a scab could be seen as a calculated risk. People like that scare me...
He's looking at what's good for him, in the short term. Not what's good for the profession. If you look at it this way, being a scab could be seen as a calculated risk. People like that scare me...
Kristie said:
DE727UPS said:
Both of you make excellent points. Thanks. I asked for a perspective from everyone, and you two hit home with direct informative perspectives. From others, overemotional, confusing viewpoints I'll simply conclude as overly zealous straphangers with no original thought. If those viewpoints happen to come from pilots in the industry, I'll conclude additionally that not all in the industry are professionals, and the system does allow some riff raff to degrade the organization.
I'm a general aviation pilot. I do not aspire to become nothing more in the aviation industry than a proficient and a more experienced pilot.
My present occupation is to train astronauts which I do well and most thoroughly enjoy. Many of them are aviators, so I enjoy that camaraderie with regard to flying. Their flying, however, transcends far beyond what any of us in either the general or professional aviation industry have done, so life is good for me.
My request for insight was simply to be able to fully understand both aspects of the argument and not to pursue either one. I'm happy with my status quo, but I wished to be able to understand either choice. Thanks DE and Kristie for providing me those clear perspectives.
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