Ground Reference Manuevers

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, S-Turns are invaluable if you should ever need to make an immediate emergency landing, and the only sutibale field is nearly right below you.

Turns around a point will come into use whenever you want to check the windsock at an airport while flying above traffic pattern altitude...or when the tower instructs you to do a 360 degree turn on the downwind to create more space between you and another aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? How does doing an S turn across a road or power line teach me how to do an emergency descent? By the way, that's a manuever I think should be on the checkride.

I don't understand why doing a turn around a point would be helpful when it comes to checking out the windsock. Can you please explain that one to me?

 

[Varig]

Say you just lost your engine, and you are at 2000ft. You are in a hilly area or in a populated area...or if you are really unlucky a combination of both. You begin checking for a suitable landing field. You can't find any, but wait, there is one right ahead. Only problem is, it is directly infront of you, only a few hundred feet. So how are you going to bleed off that extra altitude while still maintaining best glide speed? By doing coordinated S-turns,or even a 360, without being blown too far away from the field for a safe approach.


As far as the windsock goes, this is mainly for uncontrolled airports, although this manuever is also practiced many times over controlled ones as well. If you are arriving at an airport for approach, and you do not know what the wind is, you will have to fly over the airport, above pattern altitude, so you can check the windsock down on the ground. The problem is that the windsock can get pretty small from way up there, so you will have to circle it a couple of times to see exactly which way it is blowing....or just to find the windsock itself. If you do not know how to do a proper turn around a point, you will be constantly losing sight of the windsock as you will be blown over, and away from the windsock.

 

[Sprint100]

Correcting for wind drift is a normal part of flying. Heck, I learned about wind drift just flying straight. I don't need some silly ground reference maneuver to tell me add a little rudder, adjust your bank into the turn, etc. LOL
Ground reference maneuvers should be for those training to be in the Blue Angels LOL.
Pre-solo and pre-ground reference manuevers, most can keep a fix around a windsock, most can do a 360 for spacing, most can make some S-turns for spacing.
I am waiting for someone to tell me (factual actual stuff) what those maneuvers teach that you don't know already as a student pilot. Because, if you don't know about wind-drift and adjusting bank angles you have been skipping out on alot of basic reading LOL.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Emergency Spiral to Landing has now been added to the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (PTS.)

 

[EatSleepFly]

Varig,

I'm honestly not trying to give you a hard time, or be a dick here, but instead of telling instructors and experienced pilots what they already know...why not listen to what they have to say? Just a thought...

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem is, it is directly infront of you, only a few hundred feet. So how are you going to bleed off that extra altitude while still maintaining best glide speed? By doing coordinated S-turns,or even a 360, without being blown too far away from the field for a safe approach.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, the S-turns you're referring to, and the S-turns associated with ground ref. (which is what this thread WAS about) are two different things. And theres plenty of ways you can lose altitude to make that field, so I'm not even going to go into that- except to say that if its still in front of me, and I'm at 2000 ft. AGL, a 360 turn away from the field is the last thing I'm going to do. But what do I know, I only teach these routinely.

[ QUOTE ]
although this manuever is also practiced many times over controlled ones as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Turns around a point over a controlled airport? What for?

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that the windsock can get pretty small from way up there, so you will have to circle it a couple of times to see exactly which way it is blowing....or just to find the windsock itself. If you do not know how to do a proper turn around a point, you will be constantly losing sight of the windsock as you will be blown over, and away from the windsock.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making way to big a deal about flying over the windsock. With pre-planning, and listening to the radio calls, you shouldn't even have to. Enter the pattern for the preferred runway based on the radio calls or the forecast/observed winds, and then check the sock on final to determine the crosswind condition. If theres nobody around and no observed wind info., then I agree, you may want to over-fly to check the sock...but you surely don't have to do turns around the point to do it.

Again, I'm not trying to be hard on you...just a little constructive criticism. G'day.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Emergency Spiral to Landing has now been added to the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (PTS.)"

I've got the Aug 2002 version of the Private PTS on my puter. It doesn't mention this as being a required task that I can see. It mentions emergency landings using a "flight pattern"....I wouldn't directly say that needs to be a spiral. Perhaps there is an updated PTS out.

 

[Mahesh]

I think that is the latest release (I remember because the new PTS got released the day after my PPL check ride).

Mahesh

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you just lost your engine, and you are at 2000ft. You are in a hilly area or in a populated area...or if you are really unlucky a combination of both. You begin checking for a suitable landing field. You can't find any, but wait, there is one right ahead. Only problem is, it is directly infront of you, only a few hundred feet. So how are you going to bleed off that extra altitude while still maintaining best glide speed? By doing coordinated S-turns,or even a 360, without being blown too far away from the field for a safe approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not concerned about best glide speed if I need to get the plane down in a hurry. Why would I be concerned about maintaining altitude for as long as possible if I needed to get the plane down quickly? In that situation, I'd dump full flaps, put the nose down, and slip it in.

If that wasn't possible, I'd do an emergency descent, where I spiral on down. That's kind of like a turn around a point, but not really.

That's still not an S turn that is required by the PTS, though, where I'm doing an S turn across a road or power line.

 

[DrBenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm doing ground reference manuevers tommorow morning, I was wondering if anyone had any advice?1.
Smokey.............................................................................

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. they're easy.
(And that's coming from a self-doubter.)

 

[DrBenny]

[ QUOTE ]
"Emergency Spiral to Landing has now been added to the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (PTS.)"

I've got the Aug 2002 version of the Private PTS on my puter. It doesn't mention this as being a required task that I can see. It mentions emergency landings using a "flight pattern"....I wouldn't directly say that needs to be a spiral. Perhaps there is an updated PTS out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not required anymore.

 

[DrBenny]

S-turns and emergency spirals aren't the same. The point of the S-turn, as has been mentioned above, is to see how well you fly a maneuver by reference to something on the ground, AND how well you divide you attention between tasks. You don't have to fly the S-tuns at 2400 RPM and with steep bank angles.

The point of an emergency descent spiral is to get you down fast, but to a point near to where you are now. The typical emergency that would require this maneuver would be a fire.

Now, for the emergency landing where you are at 1,000 AGL, but half a mile from the "threshold," you can do a 360 degree turn, at best glide, at about 30 degrees of bank. This is NOT an emergency descent spiral. In the C172N, you'll lose about 600' or so. Now you're at 400' AGL, and just fine for your final.

A few weeks ago, CFI failed the engine, and I flew a near-perfect pattern to a 2000' or so long farm field. He said that that was OK, but didn't I see the beautiful 4,000' field straight ahead? Then he took us back up, put me in the same position, and had me do the 360 degree turn at best glide. Worked out great.

But, aviator emptor--ask your friendly CFI about all of this.

 

[EDUC8-or]

[ QUOTE ]
Emergency Spiral to Landing has now been added to the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (PTS.)



[/ QUOTE ]

You sure you're not thinking about the Steep Spiral from the commercial PTS?

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
S-turns and emergency spirals aren't the same. The point of the S-turn, as has been mentioned above, is to see how well you fly a maneuver by reference to something on the ground, AND how well you divide you attention between tasks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for agreeing with what I said. I've been saying that S-turns across a road or power line are not the same kind of manuever that you need to do when you need to get the plane down quick or for spacing in the traffic pattern.

I still don't see the point of these.

 

[Josh]

Ground reference.

Yeah, the point of them is to learn important things like pivital altitude when doing 8s on pylons

Anyhow, the point is learning aircraft control. In a situation where you have more of a reference point, or points, or roads or whatever, on the ground, it is just easier to judge how your control is. Airspeed, altitude, wind correction, attitude.

If you plan on going on to commercial, have your instructor show ya some 8s on pylons after you do your turns around points, and S turns. Everyone loves to do 8s on pylons, right

Josh