Ground Reference Manuevers
- Thread starter smokey1
- Start date
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Its not just about making a perfect ground track. Ground ref. maneuvers are also an excercise in division of attention- keeping coordinated, holding altitude/airspeed, watching for traffic, and of course, maintaining the correct ground track. The whole objective is to make you more aware of the effect of wind drift on the aircraft- not to fly around in circles...any idiot can do that. Good luck, and of course...have fun!
EatSleep is exactly correct....
If you dig into the objectives in the FAA Airplane Flying Handook, you will see that what the feds really want to see is multi-tasking close to the ground. EatSleep missed one of the tasks that the FAA mentions.. selecting suitable emergency landing locations.. especially important when the PTS allows you to do this maneuver as low as 800' AGL !!!!!
DeanR CFI
If you dig into the objectives in the FAA Airplane Flying Handook, you will see that what the feds really want to see is multi-tasking close to the ground. EatSleep missed one of the tasks that the FAA mentions.. selecting suitable emergency landing locations.. especially important when the PTS allows you to do this maneuver as low as 800' AGL !!!!!
DeanR CFI
Boltonpilot
New Member
I actually have a question about this subject seeing how it's being mentioned...how do you crab while in a turn to correct for wind while doing ground-reference manuevers? I've only been told to increase angle of bank while turning in a tail wind, and to decrease angle of bank while in a head wind to maintain set distances from reference points. Am I missing something?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Well...you want to have the steepest bank angle with a tailwind and the shallowest bank angle with the headwind. What do you do when directly crosswind to the wind? You want to be crabbed into the wind in those cases.
What the heck am I doing even giving advice on Ground Reference Mans. I hate teaching them and kinda think they are a waste of time. Some people have brought up the point it's as much about situational awareness down low and multi-tasking as wind correction...I think that's true.
The real measure, for me, of a pre-solo student isn't ground ref mans but can they land the friggen plane consistantly without me saying or doing anything.
What the heck am I doing even giving advice on Ground Reference Mans. I hate teaching them and kinda think they are a waste of time. Some people have brought up the point it's as much about situational awareness down low and multi-tasking as wind correction...I think that's true.
The real measure, for me, of a pre-solo student isn't ground ref mans but can they land the friggen plane consistantly without me saying or doing anything.
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
I agree with DE727UPS......ground ref maneuvers are a BIG waste of time in comparison to everything else taught. When I did my ground reference maneuvers, I actually had to concentrate more on the turbulence over our practice area. I already had my attention divided just flying VFR.
One more unnecessary hoop to go through for that PPL LOL!!!!!!!!!
One more unnecessary hoop to go through for that PPL LOL!!!!!!!!!
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
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EatSleep missed one of the tasks that the FAA mentions.. selecting suitable emergency landing locations.. especially important when the PTS allows you to do this maneuver as low as 800' AGL !!!!!
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Yikes! Indeed I did...probably the most important consideration too if you're going to be galavanting around at 800 ft. AGL.
Thanks Bluelake!
EatSleep missed one of the tasks that the FAA mentions.. selecting suitable emergency landing locations.. especially important when the PTS allows you to do this maneuver as low as 800' AGL !!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yikes! Indeed I did...probably the most important consideration too if you're going to be galavanting around at 800 ft. AGL.
Thanks Bluelake!
Baronman
Well-Known Member
I agree with EatSleepFly, I think ground ref is a great tool to teach multi-tasking, scanning, holding altitude while constantly changing angle of attack, adjusting for wind. Most people don't like them because they seem useless and are difficult!!
They are different than other maneuvers ie Slow Flight, Steep turns or stalls because they have to be flown differently depending on the conditions. For instance when there is no wind, a turn around a point is a constant bank around (in theory
)
As an instructor I try to stress that in a turn around a point, we DO need to crab. Allow the point to be slightly forward of the leading edge during the downwind part of the circle, and slightly behind or under the wing during the upwind part
They are different than other maneuvers ie Slow Flight, Steep turns or stalls because they have to be flown differently depending on the conditions. For instance when there is no wind, a turn around a point is a constant bank around (in theory
As an instructor I try to stress that in a turn around a point, we DO need to crab. Allow the point to be slightly forward of the leading edge during the downwind part of the circle, and slightly behind or under the wing during the upwind part
Well, S-Turns are invaluable if you should ever need to make an immediate emergency landing, and the only sutibale field is nearly right below you.
Turns around a point will come into use whenever you want to check the windsock at an airport while flying above traffic pattern altitude...or when the tower instructs you to do a 360 degree turn on the downwind to create more space between you and another aircraft.
I dont like or dislike ground refrence manuevers...but I can see the point in knowing how to do them. There are many other scenarios where they are essential other than the ones I mentioned above.
Turns around a point will come into use whenever you want to check the windsock at an airport while flying above traffic pattern altitude...or when the tower instructs you to do a 360 degree turn on the downwind to create more space between you and another aircraft.
I dont like or dislike ground refrence manuevers...but I can see the point in knowing how to do them. There are many other scenarios where they are essential other than the ones I mentioned above.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Not trying to be disagreeable here, but I disagree.
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Well, S-Turns are invaluable if you should ever need to make an immediate emergency landing, and the only sutibale field is nearly right below you.
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Can you explain? The S-Turns we're referring to are S-Turns over a road. Basically "half a turn around a point" on alternating sides of the road. Its a wind-correction and division-of-attention maneuver. It has nothing to do with losing altitude or helping spacing. The S-Turns I think you are referring to are just turning left and right to bleed off altitude or help with spacing either on final approach, or during a simulated engine-out to a field.
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or when the tower instructs you to do a 360 degree turn on the downwind to create more space between you and another aircraft.
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When the tower instructs you to do a 360, they expect you to fly around in a circle, 360 degrees. Not turn around a point. Big difference.
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Well, S-Turns are invaluable if you should ever need to make an immediate emergency landing, and the only sutibale field is nearly right below you.
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Can you explain? The S-Turns we're referring to are S-Turns over a road. Basically "half a turn around a point" on alternating sides of the road. Its a wind-correction and division-of-attention maneuver. It has nothing to do with losing altitude or helping spacing. The S-Turns I think you are referring to are just turning left and right to bleed off altitude or help with spacing either on final approach, or during a simulated engine-out to a field.
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or when the tower instructs you to do a 360 degree turn on the downwind to create more space between you and another aircraft.
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When the tower instructs you to do a 360, they expect you to fly around in a circle, 360 degrees. Not turn around a point. Big difference.
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
Well the controllers actually do want you to do a turn around a point when they order a 360; so it is often best to pick a point, and encircle it while keeping the same distance throughout the turn. They tend to get upset if the pilot does the 360 on downwind and ends up over the runway or on base.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
OK, I can agree that you do not want to drift over to the runway or base, but I would hardly consider that a turn around a point- just a little wind correction is all. Which of course, is one reason why we practice turns around a point.
[Trying to remove foot from mouth as eloquently as possible....
]
[Trying to remove foot from mouth as eloquently as possible....
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OK, I can agree that you do not want to drift over to the runway or base, but I would hardly consider that a turn around a point- just a little wind correction is all. Which of course, is one reason why we practice turns around a point.
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AHHHHH!!!!!!!!. Just make a god%amn circle and remain on downwind! How hard is that guys? What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
OK, I can agree that you do not want to drift over to the runway or base, but I would hardly consider that a turn around a point- just a little wind correction is all. Which of course, is one reason why we practice turns around a point.
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AHHHHH!!!!!!!!. Just make a god%amn circle and remain on downwind! How hard is that guys? What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
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What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
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Sure, now that you mention it.....
...ah hell, I don't have time...gotta go jump in the sim with a student. Another time I guess...
What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
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Sure, now that you mention it.....
...ah hell, I don't have time...gotta go jump in the sim with a student. Another time I guess...
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What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
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Sure, now that you mention it.....
...ah hell, I don't have time...gotta go jump in the sim with a student. Another time I guess...
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hehehehe. I'm certainly not the one to be talking on this, as I'm the "K-Mart parking lot" taxi example.
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What are we going to argue about now? Taxiing procedures?
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Sure, now that you mention it.....
...ah hell, I don't have time...gotta go jump in the sim with a student. Another time I guess...
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hehehehe. I'm certainly not the one to be talking on this, as I'm the "K-Mart parking lot" taxi example.
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
I always thought ground ref's were fun, sort of like goofing off really low.
Boltonpilot
New Member
Well I'm glad that someone finally said that these ground reference manuevers are annoying. I don't really like them at all...I like pattern work, cross country and "under the hood" flying. I do pretty well flying with solid reference to instruments. I think that's because of time I spend of FS 2002. Visual references are pretty poor on the computer, and there's no way you can fly by the seat of your pants, meaning you have to follow your instruments much more closely. (IFR practice without knowing it,
)
Back to ref. man., I'm glad that my instructor if not having me fly circle-eights around fixed points...after reading about them, I've been pretty certain that I would have considerable trouble learning to do them properly. I was happy to hear that they are not on the 'practical
Back to ref. man., I'm glad that my instructor if not having me fly circle-eights around fixed points...after reading about them, I've been pretty certain that I would have considerable trouble learning to do them properly. I was happy to hear that they are not on the 'practical