Great Lakes limps further

[Roger Roger]

Cessna 414s.

Dear lord why? Just to have reliable service you'd need 2 parts planes for each 3 active airframes.

Not only that, but the ROI on a small carrier just isn't there. Why else do you think you are always hearing about these small companies struggling...

Well, coming from a small 135 that operates a lot of snowflakes, there is a HUUUGE amount to be said for a large, single type fleet in terms of operating efficiency. Think about it, if you run a two plane outfit you're SOL when one of those is down for maintenance. If you have 10 aircraft it won't kill you. Also, if you have 10 of the same airplanes it gets a lot more cost effective to keep say a spare motor, spare control surfaces, etc etc on the shelf than if you try to spare up for 6 or 7 wildly different airframes (ask me how I know).

 

[gotWXdagain]

Dear lord why? Just to have reliable service you'd need 2 parts planes for each 3 active airframes.

Actually I was thinking twin for mountainous performance, pressurized to go over said mountains, and recip for cheaper MX. I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad, amiright?

 

[Roger Roger]

Actually I was thinking twin for mountainous performance, pressurized to go over said mountains, and recip for cheaper MX. I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad, amiright?

Once you're in the class of pressurized twins a turbine will blow a recip out of the water. On a strictly parts and labor basis it might look close but the difference with a recip is you're much more likely to have unscheduled downtime, at least in my experience.

 

[hook_dupin]

Yup. Sadly, just the nature of big business taking over another industry.

I don't see that. Big business moves in where there's a profit opportunity. I don't think there's much business in moving folks around the flat states.

 

[eightballfreight]

Small to big city is a viable commuter idea, but I'd think of high end ticket big city to big city where you are the only game in town.
Pc12 STL-MCI.
CLE-CVG.

Tickets so pricey that you only have six seats, plenty of room, newspapers in every seat.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Once you're in the class of pressurized twins a turbine will blow a recip out of the water. On a strictly parts and labor basis it might look close but the difference with a recip is you're much more likely to have unscheduled downtime, at least in my experience.

Ok, so Cessna 441

 

[FloridaLarry]

Roger Roger said (re C-441s):

Dear lord why? Just to have reliable service you'd need 2 parts planes for each 3 active airframes.

Plus, that Cessna is limited to 22,500 hours on the airframe. Short life indeed! Maybe that's where the parts planes come from?

 

[Roger Roger]

Ok, so Cessna 441

Unfortunately my impression is that Cessna is more interested in issuing ADs on their turboprop twins than they are in actually supporting the aircraft. There is a big hole in the market at that class currently. I think the Caravan and PC12 kind of killed it, most people don't see the risk of a PT6 failure being high enough to pay triple the mx costs to run a King Air. Especially for a segment as cost sensitive as EAS.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Unfortunately my impression is that Cessna is more interested in issuing ADs on their turboprop twins than they are in actually supporting the aircraft. There is a big hole in the market at that class currently. I think the Caravan and PC12 kind of killed it, most people don't see the risk of a PT6 failure being high enough to pay triple the mx costs to run a King Air. Especially for a segment as cost sensitive as EAS.

And EAS is the problem. What would really be nice is if there was an aircraft and operation out there that could fulfill the EAS-type missions without actually relying on EAS money to do it.

 

[Roger Roger]

And EAS is the problem. What would really be nice is if there was an aircraft and operation out there that could fulfill the EAS-type missions without actually relying on EAS money to do it.

Caravan and PC12 would be the closest at least while providing reliable service. There are a lot of legs covered by EAS that could be very efficiently done with a 207 or Cherokee 6 but folks down south are fussy about wanting IFR and known ice capability.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I know that the airlines in Nepal would buy all of GLAs 1900s in a heartbeat... good performance, economical on the routes that most of the moutainous airlines in Nepal fly... they also love Twotters and 228s.

I don't think they'll get that far. I could see them ending up hauling boxes in the US, if a company was smart.

 

[z987k]

I don't think they'll get that far. I could see them ending up hauling boxes in the US, if a company was smart.

The 1900D's would have to come down in price a lot. That's why all the freight outfits run C's.

 

[eightballfreight]

Spar

 

[gotWXdagain]

Caravan and PC12 would be the closest at least while providing reliable service. There are a lot of legs covered by EAS that could be very efficiently done with a 207 or Cherokee 6 but folks down south are fussy about wanting IFR and known ice capability.

How do you justify a single engine going into places CEZ, FMN, TEX, RIL, AEJ, or ALS?

 

[Roger Roger]

How do you justify a single engine going into places CEZ, FMN, TEX, RIL, AEJ, or ALS?

The number of fatals related to engine failures in a caravan or PC12 is so infinitesimally small that I doubt most people would be willing to pay the difference in ticket prices to add a second engine. Whether you could pay pilots enough to get them to fly for you is another question entirely.

 

[gotWXdagain]

The number of fatals related to engine failures in a caravan or PC12 is so infinitesimally small that I doubt most people would be willing to pay the difference in ticket prices to add a second engine. Whether you could pay pilots enough to get them to fly for you is another question entirely.

Someone has to drive the bus. If you want to do this in mountainous terrain, you will need two pilot fans.

 

[Roger Roger]

Someone has to drive the bus. If you want to do this in mountainous terrain, you will need two pilot fans.

*shrug* caravans and pilatipi criss cross the state of Alaska over mountains and such every day. Not that the state is a bastion of aviation safety but I can't remember the last time we had a fatal from an engine failure in a turbine single. Not saying it's necessarily a good idea to run them in the Rockies, but if that's what the economics support that's what the economics support.

 

[USMCmech]

Someone has to drive the bus. If you want Me to do this in mountainous terrain, you will need two pilot fans.

FIFY

OTOH, there are plenty of Caravan and Pilatus drivers who will cheerfully take a single turbine over two piston engines any day.

 

[Roger Roger]

FIFY

OTOH, there are plenty of Caravan and Pilatus drivers who will cheerfully take a single turbine over two piston engines any day.

:yeahthat:
Granted the caravan, at least stock, has other issues, right @Capt. Chaos?

 

[pwttogfk]

Flying (like life in general) is all about risk management. I fly over mountains, at night, and in IMC regularly in single-engine aircraft (piston, to boot). I think the risk to paying passengers in a C208 with a well-maintained engine and well trained and well rested crew is less than that in passengers flying on a bottom-feeder regional flying Shiny Jets. Compared to human factors, engine failure even in a piston single is a relatively low primary cause of fatalities.