wrxpilot
New Member
If you don't know much about corporate (and clearly you don't), then why are you making statements like those above? Are these opinions based on your wide ranging experiences as a noob at Jetcareers?
Great Lakes Interview
- Thread starter saria19
- Start date
If you don't know much about corporate (and clearly you don't), then why are you making statements like those above? Are these opinions based on your wide ranging experiences as a noob at Jetcareers?
Did you really just call me a noob.....I wish you could have spelled it like n00b, that really would have made my day!!! Reminds me of this http://www.27bslash6.com/function4sports.html
wrxpilot
New Member
So in other words... Yes, you do have no idea what you're yammering on about.
My point is if you think some choice is going to be the best thing in 5 to 10 years in aviation, then your the fool. There is no way to predict whats going to happen, and it is known to change very quickly. It just has a few trends. Its kinda like the stock market.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
If you are confused I'd suggest reading exactly what he took the time to quote in reply 41. I seems like you are just trying to foul off his remark.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
What the hell? That doesn't make any sense at all. Assumptions kill in aviation. Anyway, I can definitely tell you're just talking out of your ass w/ no clue what's going on in the industry around you.
It is hard to make the point I am trying to make on here, so I am just going to give up. I am trying to debate but only giving random points from it, so I do apologize. What I was trying to get at was that this industry is so rocky/unpredictable etc, that going to lakes might work out for someone, its not like its suicide to go do it, who knows they might shotgun everyone else to a major, esp. if this retiring starts happening, that's all I was trying to get at. Sorry for being so fragmented.
Ok so while all this Lakes bashing goes on I just need to clarify a few things vs all the misconceptions that tend to float around here. One, it's true that while most people come here to get their PIC time and/or 121 experience so that they can get to another major or another regional if that's what they wanted but that's not the exception. Plenty of people have left Lakes for both the corporate or fractional world so it never has been just limited to a 121 type of thing. And it's true, the majority do come here for the PIC time and most DO get that before they leave for greener pastures. This hasn't happened as of late simply because the industry took a dump and the whole age 65 thing but I know people who have left for everything from FedEx to Netjets to corporate gigs flying GIV's, King Airs and Citations.
Is it worth it? I can't speak for everyone so people will have to ask themselves that and make their own decision. It's pretty clear here that most don't feel so and that's fine. But don't hate on others because they are somehow able to make it work. You say Lakes is a place to work with horrible pay and work rules? Yep that's true. But blaming the people for working there isn't the answer. You need to know the history of Lakes and how management here works in order to know why this place is the way it is. Being here for the last two years and furloughed (not bashing you copperhed but you just haven't been here long enough and you've been unfortunate to not upgrade as fast as you thought you would) from another regional won't give you that insight, but being here for 6+ years will. What perpetuates the horrible pay and work rules here isn't because of the fact that people come here to work. Sure, you say that if everyone refuses to work here then they have to raise pay. That's pretty much true but lets face the facts and be realistic about it. You will not stop people from coming here and chasing their dreams. Bashing them for doing so will only alienate them more, probably backfire and leave them bitter about this place. You all want to know why things have always been crappy here? It's because of the pilot's attitudes.
Management knows that we're only here to get our PIC time and bolt and they use that against us. The training contract only exists because people come to build some turbine time and bail. First of all, as I've said in my other posts I will not defend nor condone Lakes management for all the things they've done. But I will be realistic about things. What do you expect management to do when people come here and leave after a few months? Our logic says pay more and treat them better but Management doesn't see it that way. We need to realize that we have to beat them at their own game and this has only occurred recently with the stagnation in the industry and influx of former Lakers who were furloughed from other places (F9, UA, DHL, USAIR, Kalitta, etc...). We all realized that we can't have that mindset of "come here for 3 years and get out" because it just perpetuates the problem and only makes things worse. From the major's who constantly eat their young in each contract to former Lakers who came but didn't fight hard enough for something better after they got theirs, it was our own pilots who did this to ourselves. You guys are kidding yourself if you think that management will one day suddenly change it's mind and just go a long with things. A quick read of Flying The Line will prove that. And yes, there's the few exceptions like WN but you really think management wouldn't pay the pilots and fa's as little as they could if they knew they could get away with it while the workers are happy? We all know that the WN management model is a great effective way to run an airline but realistically management at the other airlines could give a rat's ass about it.
So what I'm trying to say here is the best way to defeat the Evil Empire is not to bash everyone who wants to come here if they can make it work and it's what they really want. Because the truth is Lakes does work for a lot of people and the payoff, whether it's that coveted job 121 job at FedEx or WN or some corporate gig some that keeps you home every night does happen for some. It's to educate them about what the reality of working here is, teach them to fly/know their contract and don't let the company push you around, get them involved in the union simply by being an active member who knows what the fight is about. As a whole, we have to unify as a pilot group and realize that while we may not reap the benefits of what we're fighting for today but at least we'll still stick it to the company simply because we know we stopped the bleeding of the future pilot group with our fight. I know that a lot (not all) of the union officers, past and present felt this way but sadly management has found simple ways of creating infighting between the rest of the pilot group which has done nothing but weaken the cause. So I'll say this again even if it sounds like kool aide pro union talk, but nothing will be given unless we fight for it as a unified group. And the best way to do this realistically is by teaching the new hires or potentional new hires as well as our current employees what really needs to be done. Not just lots of talk about why they would be a fool to work for Lakes because the fact is Lakes may not work for some but plenty of others can attest to why it worked for them.
So you guys can go around preaching whatever you want, but that's an opinion from someone who's actually worked here for 7 years and has been actively involved in the Union even when Union membership was an embarrassing 30% of our total pilot group. There's a better way to do it and I believe that's what Doug intended for this site when he created it. So take what you want out of what I've said but that's my $.02 on it.
Is it worth it? I can't speak for everyone so people will have to ask themselves that and make their own decision. It's pretty clear here that most don't feel so and that's fine. But don't hate on others because they are somehow able to make it work. You say Lakes is a place to work with horrible pay and work rules? Yep that's true. But blaming the people for working there isn't the answer. You need to know the history of Lakes and how management here works in order to know why this place is the way it is. Being here for the last two years and furloughed (not bashing you copperhed but you just haven't been here long enough and you've been unfortunate to not upgrade as fast as you thought you would) from another regional won't give you that insight, but being here for 6+ years will. What perpetuates the horrible pay and work rules here isn't because of the fact that people come here to work. Sure, you say that if everyone refuses to work here then they have to raise pay. That's pretty much true but lets face the facts and be realistic about it. You will not stop people from coming here and chasing their dreams. Bashing them for doing so will only alienate them more, probably backfire and leave them bitter about this place. You all want to know why things have always been crappy here? It's because of the pilot's attitudes.
Management knows that we're only here to get our PIC time and bolt and they use that against us. The training contract only exists because people come to build some turbine time and bail. First of all, as I've said in my other posts I will not defend nor condone Lakes management for all the things they've done. But I will be realistic about things. What do you expect management to do when people come here and leave after a few months? Our logic says pay more and treat them better but Management doesn't see it that way. We need to realize that we have to beat them at their own game and this has only occurred recently with the stagnation in the industry and influx of former Lakers who were furloughed from other places (F9, UA, DHL, USAIR, Kalitta, etc...). We all realized that we can't have that mindset of "come here for 3 years and get out" because it just perpetuates the problem and only makes things worse. From the major's who constantly eat their young in each contract to former Lakers who came but didn't fight hard enough for something better after they got theirs, it was our own pilots who did this to ourselves. You guys are kidding yourself if you think that management will one day suddenly change it's mind and just go a long with things. A quick read of Flying The Line will prove that. And yes, there's the few exceptions like WN but you really think management wouldn't pay the pilots and fa's as little as they could if they knew they could get away with it while the workers are happy? We all know that the WN management model is a great effective way to run an airline but realistically management at the other airlines could give a rat's ass about it.
So what I'm trying to say here is the best way to defeat the Evil Empire is not to bash everyone who wants to come here if they can make it work and it's what they really want. Because the truth is Lakes does work for a lot of people and the payoff, whether it's that coveted job 121 job at FedEx or WN or some corporate gig some that keeps you home every night does happen for some. It's to educate them about what the reality of working here is, teach them to fly/know their contract and don't let the company push you around, get them involved in the union simply by being an active member who knows what the fight is about. As a whole, we have to unify as a pilot group and realize that while we may not reap the benefits of what we're fighting for today but at least we'll still stick it to the company simply because we know we stopped the bleeding of the future pilot group with our fight. I know that a lot (not all) of the union officers, past and present felt this way but sadly management has found simple ways of creating infighting between the rest of the pilot group which has done nothing but weaken the cause. So I'll say this again even if it sounds like kool aide pro union talk, but nothing will be given unless we fight for it as a unified group. And the best way to do this realistically is by teaching the new hires or potentional new hires as well as our current employees what really needs to be done. Not just lots of talk about why they would be a fool to work for Lakes because the fact is Lakes may not work for some but plenty of others can attest to why it worked for them.
So you guys can go around preaching whatever you want, but that's an opinion from someone who's actually worked here for 7 years and has been actively involved in the Union even when Union membership was an embarrassing 30% of our total pilot group. There's a better way to do it and I believe that's what Doug intended for this site when he created it. So take what you want out of what I've said but that's my $.02 on it.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Not going to lie, it's not only managements fault it's yours also. You're enabling them. Your payoff for quick turbine PIC time comes at a great cost. The QoL for pilots to come. It's not the current Legacy pilots pulling up the ladder, it's the current FO's going to airlines for the "Quick PIC Time" not giving a damn about those to come.
Also, if you want to know more about the history of our negotiations, know that we took down the Teamsters local 747 upper management because of their corruption by switching Unions and exposing the frauds for what they were. Also know that we've been handicapped by previous mediators, arbitrators and our own former 747 national (not at the pilot level). It's pretty sad to know that 7 years ago the entire pilot group voted to strike 100% but was denied by NMB saying it wasn't in the best interest of the country. Also know that our current contract was given to us because of the fact that we went to arbitration and the arbitrator felt that we as a pilot group, whom some of which didn't even make minimum wage didn't deserve more than a $1.00 to $.70 cent raise in over 7 years and no more than a .35 cent raise in per diem. Especially when the judge refused to honor our request to have someone review the company's books to prove that they did not lose as much money as they claim. It's a sad state of affairs when that happens...
Hah well you know I alluded to that in my previous post. But as I also said, there's a more effective way to fight it because you are not going to stop people from coming here. And truthfully, if someone who's 40 and wants to kick start their career in aviation knowing that Lakes will give them the quick upgrade they want then who are we to deny them that by badgering them? Especially if they've done well in life and can afford to do it?
Also, if you want to talk about the legacy pilots, most of them will be the first to admit that they were all blind sided by the 50 seat RJ's that they refused to fly for lower wages. And I know plenty who have admitted that it was their mistake for doing so and allowing the bar to be lowered with all the outsourcing. The quick PIC time contributes to the denigration of the jobs at the regional level and eventually at the major level but you'd be foolish to say that alone is what took down this industry. But that's another discussion for different thread.
rdsoxpilot
Well-Known Member
Wrong. I've done a few things for the 1st time and did it no prob. I can understand where you're coming from though...experience comes from mistakes. sure. but the bold statement of "don't go to your 1st airline/135 interview as a place you really really really want to go."...I gotta beg the differ. If you "really" want to go work for that company, things like interview experience won't matter. Do your studying, get your stuff done on time & work hard. What's wrong with that? I know several, if not many friends who do the 1st time transition to 121/135 with no probs. just do your work.
I hate the negativity of this place sometimes.
agree.
TopGunn
Well-Known Member
Those who spread the negativity are usually the ones behind the curve.
Read my gouge at will fly for food. Click Great Lakes and mine is the first one. Study AIM. They have a stupid quiz and if you screw it up your done. I got an interview but I know I screwed up the first part of the quiz. The last part is just questions about an ILS and was easy. I had a pretty rude lady who seemed to care less that she was there. Def doesn't help put someone at ease. Study AIM n Jepp high n low enroute n Approaches. Good luck. And yes they will pay yourway out there you just have to fly on Lakes. So if you live where they don't fly then your screwed.
wrxpilot
New Member
It's actually a pretty basic tool of one's job hunting skill set. I first learned about it when I was in college, working on obtaining my first engineering internship.
For you to make a statement like
shows a lot of naivete on your part. That's not being negative or slamming you, it's just common knowledge to those with professional work experience. As someone that has held several different engineering and professional pilot positions, I know how the game works. I'd wager that I know it quite a bit better than you do.
At the VERY least, I would utilize the services of a reputable interview prep coach prior to attending my first 121 interview IF it was for a job I really wanted badly.
rdsoxpilot
Well-Known Member
Check my posts.
rdsoxpilot
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you're referring to since you're quoting my whole post. I'm guessing the whole deal about not interviewing first at a place you really really want to go.
Naivete? Good word, I like it. But I am definitely correct, read the next sentence. Do your work (due diligence,) and you'll get what you put into it.
Agree. I've never really bought into this reverse psychology crap of "going to interview at places I don't want to work at, just to get the interview experience." I mean, it costs time, money and effort to go somewhere and interview; and I don't have the time/money/luxury of going to interview at places I don't truly want to work at. Go to the interview, put your best foot forward, be professional. If you get the job, cool. If not, then you'll likely never know why you didnt, unless its something obvious.
I've gotten every job I've seeked, if not the first time, then eventually. Even my current job, I didn't know that the fill-in-blank test on FARs had been changed to same day after the oral interview, instead of next day. Was going to do a cursory review of 91, but didnt have the chance to. But no matter, since I was flying currently and knew what I needed to know for day to day ops as a pilot, going into that FAR test cold wasn't a deal killer and I still only missed 1 out of 65 questions. It's Part 91.....stuff we should all know in order to be pilots. Of course, I don't recommend that technique and good prep is key, but it wasn't a deal breaker at all; just as going into the HR interview wasn't. I had no idea what was going to be asked in the HR interview, but figured there'd be some standard Q's. I just sat straight, kept a professional demeanor, answered their questions straight with no BS, flowed with the tone of the interview (relaxed), looked them in the eye, and didnt tell them canned answers that they would supposedly "want to hear."
Canned crap like "If we were to hire you to the Puerto Rico base, would you accept?" Most people's answer was "oh yes! I'll take wherever Im sent!", regardless of whether it was on their request list or not and regardless of if theyd be miserable there or not.
My answer was "No I won't. The bases Im requesting are on my application. I didn't put PR because I don't want to be based there. I only want the 5 (out of 35) places I listed."
They appreciated that answer instead of the canned answer crap of "Ill go anywhere!!!!!!!!"
And I got the job the first time, at my number 1 requested base. I know of guys that listed EVERY base, then get somewhere they hated. Don't game the system, be straight-up.
Moral of the story: If you want it bad enough, then put forth the effort to go and get it.