GPS Spoofing... Watch your Assets.

F

form810

Mandate my ass! It's a movie, not a life.
Anyone experienced any wonkiness lately?? I've predicted this for 15 years now. Still, spooky and scary. Especially when it douses yer INS. (My fear is this was a failed test run. They didn't realized that spoofing the GPS would bring down the entire NAV system. I also blame manufactures for letting the ring gyro get so FUBAR'd due, apparently, to just a faulty GPS signal. That said, because the INSs did entirely fail in an obvious fashion, that obviousness probably prevented far worse outcomes.)

I know a lot of you detest me, but I fly one of the affected types, so you know, personally, your observations matter to me in a very personal way.

Read here (You can also join Ops Group Today, and get a free set of steak knives!!)

ops.group

Flights misled over position, navigation failure follows

Update - Thursday Sep 28 Since publishing Monday’s risk warning on complex navigation failures following fake GPS signals, we have received further concerning reports from operators, mirroring the same events. The impact of the nav failures is becoming clearer, with one operator almost entering Ira
ops.group ops.group
 
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form810 said:
Anyone experienced any wonkiness lately?? I've predicted this for 15 years now. Still, spooky and scary. Especially when it douses yer INS. (My fear is this was a failed test run. They didn't realized that spoofing the GPS would bring down the entire NAV system. I also blame manufactures for letting the ring gyro get so FUBAR'd due, apparently, to just a faulty GPS signal. That said, because the INSs did entirely fail in an obvious fashion, that obviousness probably prevented far worse outcomes.)

I know a lot of you detest me, but I fly one of the affected types, so you know, personally, your observations matter to me in a very personal way.

Read here (You can also join Ops Group Today, and get a free set of steak knives!!)

ops.group

Flights misled over position, navigation failure follows

Update - Thursday Sep 28 Since publishing Monday’s risk warning on complex navigation failures following fake GPS signals, we have received further concerning reports from operators, mirroring the same events. The impact of the nav failures is becoming clearer, with one operator almost entering Ira
ops.group ops.group
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Is this important? If it is, maybe you could just write out a simple post without the theatrics. It's a forum post, not a performance.
 
mikecweb said:
Is this important? If it is, maybe you could just write out a simple post without the theatrics. It's a forum post, not a performance.
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Important?!!?

I don't know, ACE !??

I think it's very important. But, maybe, these days, that's just me!! I kinda like to know where I am and what time it is... flying or not. Maybe your propensities differ, eh, ACE?

If you have to ask that question, I think it's YOUR problem. You seem unable to discern the WHEAT from the CHAFF.

But thanks for starting us out with such a helpful burst off the blocks.

Anyone else seen any NAV anomalies??
 
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@mikecweb Based on your derisive "laughing emoji" response, I'm almost tempted to say that one day I hope you end up in a busy, non-radar environment with no NAV capabilities. But, I wouldn't wish that even upon you. 'Cause I know that you and lots of your innocent, ignorant, revenue-paying PAX and crew would DIE WITH YOU. Then again, Go Pray to Yer Napkins, eh. Gravity's Dead. Napkins Save!


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form810 said:
@mikecweb Based on your derisive "laughing emoji" response, I'm almost tempted to say that one day I hope you end up in a busy, non-radar environment with no NAV capabilities. But, I wouldn't wish that even upon you. 'Cause I know that you and lots of your innocent, ignorant, revenue-paying PAX and crew would DIE WITH YOU. Then again, Go Pray to Yer Napkins, eh. Gravity's Dead. Napkins Save!


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Fine, I've been jammed on that airway pretty much everytime I've flown on it. In fact when I haven't been it seemed weird. Again the theatrics aren't necessary.
 
mikecweb said:
Fine, I've been jammed on that airway pretty much everytime I've flown on it. In fact when I haven't been it seemed weird. Again the theatrics aren't necessary.
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To be slightly fair to his original post, this isn't jamming, but rather spoofing. Anybody who has flown outside OCONUS has been jammed at one point or another. In these reported cases though, the signal that overwhelmed the normal GPS frequency actually carried GPS data that was close enough to the real thing that the plane's computers thought it was legit, and but because it didn't make any sense, went into failure mode, which somehow (on the Gulfstream and one of the Boeing's) took out their inertial system as well.

That can be fixed pretty easily by software, once the problem is fully understood, but the fear of a very slow, not perceptible to the pilot, shift of illegitimate GPS data, that the airplane accepts, is a scary (although not to the level that Formster800 was raising it to be) concept.
 
BobDDuck said:
To be slightly fair to his original post, this isn't jamming, but rather spoofing. Anybody who has flown outside OCONUS has been jammed at one point or another. In these reported cases though, the signal that overwhelmed the normal GPS frequency actually carried GPS data that was close enough to the real thing that the plane's computers thought it was legit, and but because it didn't make any sense, went into failure mode, which somehow (on the Gulfstream and one of the Boeing's) took out their inertial system as well.

That can be fixed pretty easily by software, once the problem is fully understood, but the fear of a very slow, not perceptible to the pilot, shift of illegitimate GPS data, that the airplane accepts, is a scary (although not to the level that Formster800 was raising it to be) concept.
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My encounters were much more benign in that we just lost GPS. It would occur at every turn in the airway and we would revert to RI NAV. Our security reports refer to it as GPS Jamming. I understand what this report is referring to may be something different. Haven’t flown that route in I guess over a year. Also lose signal near ABQ regularly as well.
 
Most of the jamming I've seen has been happening deepinnaheartuh of the Ankara FIR.

The only spoofing I've seen was in the US for near Quantico.
 
mikecweb said:
Fine, I've been jammed on that airway pretty much everytime I've flown on it. In fact when I haven't been it seemed weird. Again the theatrics aren't necessary.
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Again... this is NOT jamming. This is spoofing. False signal.
 
BobDDuck said:
To be slightly fair to his original post, this isn't jamming, but rather spoofing. Anybody who has flown outside OCONUS has been jammed at one point or another. In these reported cases though, the signal that overwhelmed the normal GPS frequency actually carried GPS data that was close enough to the real thing that the plane's computers thought it was legit, and but because it didn't make any sense, went into failure mode, which somehow (on the Gulfstream and one of the Boeing's) took out their inertial system as well.

That can be fixed pretty easily by software, once the problem is fully understood, but the fear of a very slow, not perceptible to the pilot, shift of illegitimate GPS data, that the airplane accepts, is a scary (although not to the level that Formster800 was raising it to be) concept.
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Thanks for being at least "slightly" fair.

Some folks didn't attend the Derek Zoolander Skool for Kids who Can't Read Good.

Jamming? Spoofing? ... Hydrocarbons? Carbohydrates?

'Saul Good, Man!

If a spoof actually worked -as hoped by bad guys, and as anticipated a decade and a half ago by analysts- and the airplane were to "accept" the spoof and be displaced 600m to the east and 400 low of the correct course at, say, SJC, you don't think that would be "my" "raised" level of scary? Really??

This lackadaisical attitude toward tech and its weaknesses, and systems thinking in general, is precisely what lead to stoopid stuff like 9/11. If we focused better on prevention, we would have no need to spend multiple trillions of dollars on knee-jerk, empty reactions once bad stuff actually happens.
 
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form810 said:
@mikecweb Based on your derisive "laughing emoji" response, I'm almost tempted to say that one day I hope you end up in a busy, non-radar environment with no NAV capabilities. But, I wouldn't wish that even upon you. 'Cause I know that you and lots of your innocent, ignorant, revenue-paying PAX and crew would DIE WITH YOU. Then again, Go Pray to Yer Napkins, eh. Gravity's Dead. Napkins Save!


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I’ve flown with him before and he’ll handle it better than most. Then he’ll get struck by lightning.
 
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