GPS Approach ?

AG3FLY

New Member
Hello chum- buckets,

I got a question for all you pilots who know more about me regarding the gps approaches. Question?????? Does the GPS ( IFR Approved) need to be backed up by other source of navigation while shooting a GPS approach? ...for part 91 or 135?

Question???? Can a Gps be used as a primary source of navigation for an NDB approach???91 and -or 135.
 
1. If you are WAAS capable, then no you only need your GPS unit. If no WAAS, then you need some other form of radio navigation.
I don't think there is anything in the 135 regs about this, so that means it defaults to 91, which is as stated above.

We don't have WAAS in our Lears or Citations, yet we are approved (135) for GPS approaches. What kind of "other form of radio naviation" would you use while flying a GPS approach anyway? :confused:
 
Hello chum- buckets,

I got a question for all you pilots who know more about me regarding the gps approaches. Question?????? Does the GPS ( IFR Approved) need to be backed up by other source of navigation while shooting a GPS approach?
Heck no. As SteveC said, what would you use?
 
We don't have WAAS in our Lears or Citations, yet we are approved (135) for GPS approaches. What kind of "other form of radio naviation" would you use while flying a GPS approach anyway? :confused:

Miscommunication, that is not what I said at all.

...but it does now sound like the op is getting after what you asked.
 
If it's a NDB/GPS approach, as in the GPS approach is an overlay of the NDB approach, you can use GPS. If it's just a NDB approach, you must use ADF/NDB. Also, your alternate must have an approach other than a GPS.

Jtsastre
 
Miscommunication, that is not what I said at all.

:confused:

I'm not following you on this. That is not what you said, or that is not what you intended to say?

Here is what you said:
1. If you are WAAS capable, then no you only need your GPS unit. If no WAAS, then you need some other form of radio navigation.

I disagreed with that statement because you can fly a GPS approach without being WAAS capable. What did I miss?
 
Alright twist my arm, I will write it out.

What I said stands, and it is right, but it was not the answer to his question.

I thought his question was if you need other types of Nav-aids on-board when you were using solely GPS. The answer to that is as I said. Though as your question made me go back and read his question, he was wondering if he had to use another form of Nav while on the approach to back up his GPS.
The answer to that has been answered, not by me.

Hence, needing another form of Nav on a GPS approach, is "not what I said at all."
 
Did you really mean to use the term WAAS? I think that might be where my confusion is coming into play.
 
Yes, my statement doesn't work unless I bring up WAAS.

I am not sure where you are missing.

I was talking about what needed to be on-board to use the IFR GPS.
He was talking about what is needed to be used during the GPS approach.
 
Yes, my statement doesn't work unless I bring up WAAS.

I am not sure where you are missing.

I was talking about what needed to be on-board to use the IFR GPS.

Now that I've got this thread completely derailed... :)

...let me tell you where I am coming from. I don't have WAAS in the Lear 40s or the Citation Bravos that I fly. Both aircraft types (9 planes total) have GPS. Both are IFR GPS certified. I can legally fly IFR enroute based on GPS, RNAV SIDS, RNAV STARS, and GPS approaches (LNAV only), and I can do all of that under Part 135 regs (i.e., it's in our OpsSpecs).

I don't need WAAS to do any of those things, so I'm not following you when you say; "I was talking about what needed to be on-board to use the IFR GPS", nor your original statement; "If you are WAAS capable, then no you only need your GPS unit. If no WAAS, then you need some other form of radio navigation."

I think that you may be confused about what WAAS is and how it comes into play with the overall GPS system, but you are confusing me because you seem so adamant about...something...I'm not sure what.

Sorry, I don't mean to beat this one into the ground but I think we are not communicating well and I'd like to remedy that. If you'd take another whack at explaining what you are trying to tell me I'd appreciate it. :)
 
Whoa, too much confusion...

I believe Douglas is trying to say that to use GPS *as the sole navigation equipment* onboard an aircraft, it must be a WAAS GPS.

In other words, if a person has a WAAS GPS, they don't need anything else installed in the plane (no VORs, ADFs, etc.) to be legal for IFR.

If the GPS is a regular GPS unit, even if it's an IFR certified GPS, there must be an alternate source of navigation available (such as VORs) if the plane is going to be operated under IFR. The pilot can flip the VOR receiver off and only use the GPS receiver if he wants, but the VOR receiver has to at least be installed in the plane.

This is all spelled out in the AIM, but I forget the exact references and I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.
 
Now that I've got this thread completely derailed... :)

...let me tell you where I am coming from. I don't have WAAS in the Lear 40s or the Citation Bravos that I fly. Both aircraft types (9 planes total) have GPS. Both are IFR GPS certified. I can legally fly IFR enroute based on GPS, RNAV SIDS, RNAV STARS, and GPS approaches (LNAV only), and I can do all of that under Part 135 regs (i.e., it's in our OpsSpecs).

I don't need WAAS to do any of those things, so I'm not following you when you say; "I was talking about what needed to be on-board to use the IFR GPS", nor your original statement; "If you are WAAS capable, then no you only need your GPS unit. If no WAAS, then you need some other form of radio navigation."

)

No problem; by what I said this is allowed
I don't have WAAS in the Lear 40s or the Citation Bravos that I fly. Both aircraft types (9 planes total) have GPS. Both are IFR GPS certified. I can legally fly IFR enroute based on GPS, RNAV SIDS, RNAV STARS, and GPS approaches (LNAV only), and I can do all of that under Part 135 regs (i.e., it's in our OpsSpecs).
as long as you follow what I say here,
"If you are WAAS capable, then no you only need your GPS unit. If no WAAS, then you need some other form of radio navigation."
. Some other form of radio navigation being an ADF,VOR, HSI, RMI or something along those lines.

I am sure your airplanes do have those things (vor/adf), other wise you would need WAAS to be legal. Meaning you can do all those GPS activities in your airplane, but a non-WAAS IFR GPS cannot be the sole NAV in the airplane. WAAS is certified to be the sole source of navigation capable in an IFR aircraft.
Sole NAV meaning: it is the only form of navigation physically in the airplane. It is your sole option for navigation.

My original post was way off from the original question, that's why I deleted it.
--------
This is a side note, but I've heard that the FAA is slow to Certifying LPV approaches for 135. Do you know of any 135 op specs that have been approved for LPVs?

-----

I am not confused on what WAAS is or what I am trying to say, but I am obviously struggling on putting it into words.
 
Whoa, too much confusion...

I believe Douglas is trying to say that to use GPS *as the sole navigation equipment* onboard an aircraft, it must be a WAAS GPS.

In other words, if a person has a WAAS GPS, they don't need anything else installed in the plane (no VORs, ADFs, etc.) to be legal for IFR.

If the GPS is a regular GPS unit, even if it's an IFR certified GPS, there must be an alternate source of navigation available (such as VORs) if the plane is going to be operated under IFR. The pilot can flip the VOR receiver off and only use the GPS receiver if he wants, but the VOR receiver has to at least be installed in the plane.

This is all spelled out in the AIM, but I forget the exact references and I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.

:yeahthat: Well said

I think you both are saying the same thing, only not :D
 
All right, now I get it! Thanks Douglas (and jrh) for spelling it out. I thought that you were saying that my GPS needed to be WAAS capable to fly IFR. Now I see what you meant.

I learned something new, too. Iwasn't aware that WAAS GPS was OK as a sole source with no backup.

As far as the side question, I really don't know the current status of 135 approval for LPV. I've heard our guys talk about it some, and the general consensus is that it really isn't worth the hassle at this point. At most places that we go (that don't have an ILS) the LNAV mins are usually plenty good for getting in, and we would see the benefit of LNAV/VNAV or LPV so seldom that it really isn't worth jumping through all of the hoops. Maybe that will change down the road. *shrug*
 
Hello chum- buckets,



Question???? Can a Gps be used as a primary source of navigation for an NDB approach???91 and -or 135.

only if the approach plate says "or GPS" at the top of the approach plate. If it does not, you must use the ADF for navigation from the FAF to the MAP. You may still identify the FAF and the MAP with your GPS.

All right, now I get it! Thanks Douglas (and jrh) for spelling it out. I thought that you were saying that my GPS needed to be WAAS capable to fly IFR. Now I see what you meant.

I learned something new, too. Iwasn't aware that WAAS GPS was OK as a sole source with no backup.

If it is TSO 145a/146a certified you may use your WAAS enabled GPS as a sole source of navigation.
 
only if the approach plate says "or GPS" at the top of the approach plate. If it does not, you must use the ADF for navigation from the FAF to the MAP. You may still identify the FAF and the MAP with your GPS.

For approach procedures that specify VOR, NDB, etc. I believe you can use an RNAV system for the whole procedure. If you read the aim section 1-2-3 (which just came out with the last AIM update), it sounds like you can use an approved RNAV system. I am not positive, but the way I read that section leads me to believe you can. The only approaches you cant use an RNAV system is for Localizer based approaches. What are your takes on how the AIM reads?

Here is a link to AIM section 1-2-3... http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0102.html
 
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