Got Fired!!!

[bob loblaw]

I am not the most well liked person on this board, so I can say pretty much anything I want and not worry about offending anyone. Having said that, I feel Greenday Pilot did what anyone would have done had they had the opportunity that Greenday received. He didn't do it for free, he received a pay check. He isn't the first pilot who took a lower paying job just to get experience to move onto better things. Heck, not one person has said that it is the same thing a CFI does. We work as instructors to build time and get paid a very bad wage for doing it, so how is this any different?

I feel my last sentence above pretty much sums it up. Keep up the good work Greenday Pilot. You will be just fine.

 

[GreenDayPilot]

hey, THANKS!.... really appreciate that

 

[Malko]

I am not the most well liked person on this board, so I can say pretty much anything I want and not worry about offending anyone. Having said that, I feel Greenday Pilot did what anyone would have done had they had the opportunity that Greenday received. He didn't do it for free, he received a pay check. He isn't the first pilot who took a lower paying job just to get experience to move onto better things. Heck, not one person has said that it is the same thing a CFI does. We work as instructors to build time and get paid a very bad wage for doing it, so how is this any different?

I feel my last sentence above pretty much sums it up. Keep up the good work Greenday Pilot. You will be just fine.

:banghead: :banghead:

 

[bob loblaw]

:banghead: :banghead:

Jep, since I am being highly moderated, I will express each of my views in a clear, concise, and well thought out manner. Can I get some text to go along with the head banging.

How is this any different from flight instruction? Greenday is getting paid to do a job that many would have jumped on for free. His pay check may not be $40,000 for this position, but he isn't doing it for free. We instruct in airplanes for peanuts. We see being a CFI as a stepping stone, then on to better things. You can't go into a flight school and say Mr. Cheif CFI, I am a CFI who has 300 hours and I am a professional, so I demand $45.00 per flight hour, with benefits. You will be laughed out of the room. An 800 hour pilot can't go up to a Cheif Pilot and say Mr. CP, I have 800 hours and 150 multi. Even though I have only flown piston training aircraft, I would like to fly right seat in your Kingair and you can pay me $40,000 to start.

Jep, my argument is clear, you can't ask for a high salary for an entry level position and expect to be taken seriously. Greenday didn't PFT, and he received a pay check. He didn't take the job from anyone. Please give me an argument to support your position. What would you have done different from Greenday, had you had been given this opportunity?

 

[TaterSalad]

He didn't take the job from anyone.

Of course he took the job from someone! He said himself that the owner didn't want to pay someone $40k. He took the job from a more qualified guy, by undercutting the cost! I don't understand why people don't get this concept. Everytime an owner sees he can hire a low time guy for half the cost of someone more qualified, that owner will never again seek a more qualified applicant. The more this happens, the less fairly compensated jobs there will be, once you reach that higher qualified level. Yeah, you might get ahead in the short term, but where are you going to go once you've built some experience? You're gonna end up having to accept the $20k/yr job (that was once $40k/yr), because if you don't, some low time guy will do it for that amount. We're shooting ourselves in the foot, and I just don't understand how people fail to realize this!

And you ask what I would have done............I still have some principle. I'd have turned him down. Yeah, someone else is gonna do it, but at least I know it wasn't me. I'd do exactly what I'm doing now. Keep on instructing, and building time the old fashioned way, until I'm qualified to accept the position and get fairly compensated for it. You "new skool" guys can flame away all you want, but realize to those who understand this, you just look like fools and are hurting yourselves.

 

[Texasspilot]

Many CFI's are horribly underpaid, its sad, I know I was. But heres an idea, refuse to work for the school thats underpaying you, get your buddies not to work for the school, get thier buddies not to work for the school. Pretty soon the school owners going to be asking why he can't get any CFI'S.

However there are many exceptions to this rule, I do know many people who made damn good money instructing. Theres even job posts on this board for flight instructers who make decent money. If you don't accept the low pay, they cant give it to you.

If the guy isn't willing to pay you like a professional, what makes you he'll treat you like a professional employee instead of some replacable little peon.

Other problems I think you have.
You're willingness to keep mooching off your parents forever. Thats sad, When I turned 18 I moved to college and, though I love my mom, the thought of me mooching off mom and pop for the next however long just seems like a failure on my part.

20K is not fair for your experience. You're doing the same job as any other part 91 corporate pilot, your responsible for him and his machine, you should be paid accordingly. Before someone comes in here with a yah well the regionals blah balh....theres advancment at the regionals, yearly raises, upgrades, etc.. that allow you to have a decent living after the first year or two.

I dunno maybe I think to much of myself to tell mom I'll be sleeping on her couch and asking her for lunch money cause I can't afford my bills and food on my professional pilot salary.

 

[JDE]

...Even though I have only flown piston training aircraft, I would like to fly right seat in your Kingair and you can pay me $40,000 to start.

Jep, my argument is clear, you can't ask for a high salary for an entry level position and expect to be taken seriously.

I'm living proof that you can be taken seriously...even with little experience & low time. According to the Professional Pilot Salary Survey, the pay for my entry level job is higher than the national average. Did I have to demand my pay? No, because what I was going to ask for was less than what I was offered (BTW, I was going to ask for at least the national average).

But what I think part of the problem is...is the fact the many CFI's get crap pay. When you don't make a lot of money instructing, $20,000/year AND the opportunity to fly a turbine aircraft seems very desirable. Can I say I blame anyone for that? No, but I totally agree that it's just shooting ourselves in the foot. The ideal thing would be demanding good wages when we first start out as CFI's...too bad most schools can barely stay afloat paying the instructors the crap wages. CFI's are professional pilots and should be paid accordingly.

 

[TaterSalad]

I don't totally buy into that argument. I'm instructing now, at a school which does virtually no advertising. Granted, we're near a large city, but still 30 mins away and not very "out there" in the public eye. In other words, we don't have people beating down the doors every day. My yearly income is on track to exceed $25k. I get paid $20/hr flight time, which I've seen is about average for CFI's. In other words, CFI's don't have to get paid so little (ha, not that $25k is a lot, but it's not the pittance you'd hear some complain about). However, in order to make that happen, I'm available to students 7 days/week, any hr of the day they want to fly. I choose to work my a$$ off to make a decent living while instructing, rather than • myself out to "get ahead". So, while I respect the opinion, that argument doesn't hold water with me. I think the problem is, kids are impatient with this career and unwilling to put in the time and WORK to do it properly. I know 1 or 2 guys looking for a shortcut in this career. They're too shortsighted to see, it'll only hurt em in the end.

 

[JDE]

I agree Tater. But are there really that many CFI's making $25k/year? I know of guys making a killing instructing...I know it's possible, but how many are actually doing it? I know there is a lack of work ethic with many folks (I don't want to narrow it down to ages...there are plenty of people of all ages with pisspoor work ethics...even though it does seem some younger guys are looking for the shortcut).

 

[Malko]

Jep, since I am being highly moderated, I will express each of my views in a clear, concise, and well thought out manner. Can I get some text to go along with the head banging.
.......
Jep, my argument is clear, you can't ask for a high salary for an entry level position and expect to be taken seriously. Greenday didn't PFT, and he received a pay check. He didn't take the job from anyone. Please give me an argument to support your position. What would you have done different from Greenday, had you had been given this opportunity?

I would argue that he did take the job from someone. As he stated back when he took the job, the owner did not want to pay some $50,000 so he came into the flight school and offered me $20,000.

As for taking the offer myself, I would try to find the avg salary of this job and go from there. If it turns out that the owner is paying the avg salary then yes, I would consider it. But again, my feeling is that the owner is well below the average because he went into an FBO, looked for someone willing to fly at what I would guess is a reduced rate. My main reasons for thinkg this are the exact words of Greenday pilot himself.

I would approach this as any job in my current field. I am in I.T. and I have a very good idea of what the market pays here in Minneapolis. I have interviewed for other positions and turned them down because of the ridicously low pay. I know what the market is and would not leave my current position for anything less.

As for the no text, I apoligize this being at work late night, I don't have the striaghtest thinking. OH well, here I sit again. Thanks for teh civilized response.

 

[bob loblaw]

I think you misunderstand me when I say he didn't take the job from someone. Greenday didn't tell the guy that he would work at half the going rate for the position. The guy had his mind made up as to how much he was willing to pay for a position that really isn't needed. The Kingair didn't require a type rating or a two pilot crew. Greenday has 400 hours of dual given, and 800 hours total. He also is doing it the old fashioned way, he just got a lucky break and accepted the offer that was made too him. My view on this situation would be totally differnt if the guy asked Greenday to F/O in the Falcon at a well reduced rate.

The Falcon is a two crew jet, and requires a type rating. This job would be worth $40,000 to step in as a F/O. Most companies want more time than Greenday has to crew the jet, and also pay the wages for doing so. I would be upset if I knew that someone with 1500 hours total, 500 multi, and 100 turbine was there trying to get the right seat job and Greenday walks in and says " hold it right there mister, I will do the job for half the salary that this man wants." But I just don't think it happened that way.

 

[TaterSalad]

Obviously, if he was being paid to be there, he was required for some reason. Most likely insurance requiring a 2 man crew. The guy wasn't paying him a salary out of the goodness of his heart, because he wanted to help someone get experience AND get paid for it at the same time. The point remains the same. That position had to be filled, and should have been filled by a guy with more experience, getting paid industry standard wages. And to give an idea...........I may be getting slightly ABOVE industry standard even, but a few months back, 1000tt, I was offered a contract position, FO on a King Air 300. I get paid $350/day, plus expenses.

I have no problem whatsoever with a low time guy, who happens to luck out and find someone who will pay him what should be paid, for a position such as this. In fact, it'd be nice if it happened to more people. I do, however, have a problem with someone supporting these owners who walk into flight schools, and offer half of what should be paid, because they know someone will do it for that amount. Can't really blame the owners................it's just good business sense to pay someone half the going rate if that's what they themselves think they're worth. Someday, this will make sense to anyone who's currently defending it now.............unfortunately, it'll probably be at the hands of someone willing to do YOUR job for half the cost. I hate that this argument is so hopeless, and that's what it's gonna take for it to sink in...........

 

[Malko]

I think you misunderstand me when I say he didn't take the job from someone. Greenday didn't tell the guy that he would work at half the going rate for the position. The guy had his mind made up as to how much he was willing to pay for a position that really isn't needed. ....
...........Greenday walks in and says " hold it right there mister, I will do the job for half the salary that this man wants." But I just don't think it happened that way.

I don't know the exact rate for PIC in the king Air, but I would bet it is a bit more than what the guy was offering GD. The position was really needed, as by GD's own words "the guy wanted to ride in the back seat", leaving GD to fly my himself, PIC.

While GD didn't interrupt negotiations with another more qualified pilot, in a round about way, he did. Why do you think the owner went into a flight school looking for a pilot and not a place like Signature or somewhere else where there would possibly more qualified, higher paid pilots? Because he knew he would have to pay them more.

I think I have beat this horse, so I will leave it there. Agree to disagree.

Off to see the sandman.

 

[Bluto]

I'm proud knowing that I'll be well qualified for the airlines by the time I reach my 21st birthday.... with 800+ hours AND over 100 hours turbine!....

Sorry to hear about losing you job. Something to consider is that without a college degree (4-year) you are absolutely not going to be well-qualified for the airlines, at least not a major. Most newhires at the regionals today have a 4-year degree. If you want to be the bitter, angry, 40-year old regional captain (without a degree) who just can't figure out why he isn't getting called back by Southwest, keep on the track you're on. If you want to move on quickly, get a degree. I'd do it now, while you have some time available. Instruct part-time if you have to, this career is not a race.

 

[bob loblaw]

I know that some insurance companies require a second pilot on board in the Kingair, but this is usually due to a relatively inexperienced Captain. I don't believe that Greenday was listed on the insurance as a PIC due to his amount of hours, this is why I said he wasn't needed. To support my theory consider this, the insurance company would consider a lower time PIC if the PIC is supervised for a certain amount of time by a pilot with a lot of experience in make and model. Greenday doesn't meet this requirement which leads me to believe the Captain is highly experienced and approved for single pilot operations in the Kingair. This again is why I believe Greenday wasn't needed by the insurance as much as I believe the owner wanted a second pilot on board.

I feel the owner gave Greenday the break he was looking for and he had his mind made up as to how much he was willing to pay him as he isn't really needed. I myself would have jumped on the deal as long as the flying time exceeded my flight instruction time. I wouldn't want to work for someone and fly for 200 hours a year while I still have less than 1,000 hours. Greenday did just fine and I hope him great fortune in his career.

 

[Propilot]

Hrmm, demanding what your worth eh? I wonder what a 800TT cessna single time guy is worth? Id say just about what this guy is getting.


You dont understand how people dont "get it"? I dont understand how you dont get it! Its a MARKET. The pilot profession is not special. You are not immune to the market.

Same thing goes for teachers. Schools would rather hire newly graduated 22 years olds and pay them 25K a year, than pay someone with a Doctorate Degree.

IS that teacher taking away jobs from a PhD? Sure is.

here is a thought, how about that teacher say "no way, im not working for 25k a year, I am worth 50K per year". THAT wont get you anywhere! Is a PhD more qualified? Sure is! But guess what, THEY DONT WANT A PhD because they are too expensive!

Know why?

Its not YOU, the employee who decides how much you are worth to a particular employer. Its the EMPLOYER who decides. Then YOU can decide if the offer is worth it to you!

In the end, the employer is getting a less qualified person...but that is what the employer wants! CHEAP!

You may not think its right, but it doesnt matter at all what you think, the indudstry doesnt listen to you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what this guy did. The employer wanted a low time guy that he didnt have to pay much for and that is what he got. little experience for little pay. it is HIS company.

Just because you have more experiance does not mean that you are entitled to any lower job.

Take my mother, for example.

She is a PhD. She cannot get hired by the local school system because they dont want to have to pay her PhD rates! They would rather pay a 22 year old 20K per year. Hell, the school system even tries to encourage early retirement so that can cut costs.

Does the product suffer? Sure, it would be great if all those kids could learn from a PhD with 30 years of teaching experience.

BUT

what your saying is akin to telling those 22 year old teachers that they should be ashamed of themsleves because they are taking jobs waay from more qualified teachers. They should also walk into the interview after college and demand 40K per year with benefits. Afterall, its a shame to work for more than what you think you are worth.



For Crice Cakes! Some of you people are hilarious.


And just so there is no confusion, I think it sucks. Id love for this guy to get 40K per year. But telling the individual pilot to make a stand is assinine. That, my friends, is shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[TaterSalad]

Hrmm, demanding what your worth eh? I wonder what a 800TT cessna single time guy is worth? Id say just about what this guy is getting.


You dont understand how people dont "get it"? I dont understand how you dont get it! Its a MARKET. The pilot profession is not special. You are not immune to the market.

Same thing goes for teachers. Schools would rather hire newly graduated 22 years olds and pay them 25K a year, than pay someone with a Doctorate Degree.

IS that teacher taking away jobs from a PhD? Sure is.

here is a thought, how about that teacher say "no way, im not working for 25k a year, I am worth 50K per year". THAT wont get you anywhere! Is a PhD more qualified? Sure is! But guess what, THEY DONT WANT A PhD because they are too expensive!

Know why?

Its not YOU, the employee who decides how much you are worth to a particular employer. Its the EMPLOYER who decides. Then YOU can decide if the offer is worth it to you!

In the end, the employer is getting a less qualified person...but that is what the employer wants! CHEAP!

You may not think its right, but it doesnt matter at all what you think, the indudstry doesnt listen to you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what this guy did. The employer wanted a low time guy that he didnt have to pay much for and that is what he got. little experience for little pay. it is HIS company.

Just because you have more experiance does not mean that you are entitled to any lower job.

Take my mother, for example.

She is a PhD. She cannot get hired by the local school system because they dont want to have to pay her PhD rates! They would rather pay a 22 year old 20K per year. Hell, the school system even tries to encourage early retirement so that can cut costs.

Does the product suffer? Sure, it would be great if all those kids could learn from a PhD with 30 years of teaching experience.

BUT

what your saying is akin to telling those 22 year old teachers that they should be ashamed of themsleves because they are taking jobs waay from more qualified teachers. They should also walk into the interview after college and demand 40K per year with benefits. Afterall, its a shame to work for more than what you think you are worth.



For Crice Cakes! Some of you people are hilarious.


And just so there is no confusion, I think it sucks. Id love for this guy to get 40K per year. But telling the individual pilot to make a stand is assinine. That, my friends, is shooting yourself in the foot.

Wanna know the difference between your example, and the piloting profession? The starting pay for teachers hasn't been continually going downward because new teachers are willing to underbid their brethren. Pilots USED to make better (and in some cases MUCH better) money, even when first starting out. That is, *until* people started whoring themselves out. So justify it any way you want, but it is what it is.

 

[bob loblaw]

Wanna know the difference between your example, and the piloting profession? The starting pay for teachers hasn't been continually going downward because new teachers are willing to underbid their brethren. Pilots USED to make better (and in some cases MUCH better) money, even when first starting out. That is, *until* people started whoring themselves out. So justify it any way you want, but it is what it is.

TaterSalad, a CFI has 800 hours total, less than 200 hours of multi, and no turbine experience. How much money should this person ask for when approached to fill a position that really isn't needed? If you think the position is needed, refer to my post above. BTW there is a big difference between wants, and needs. The man wanted Greenday, but didn't really need him.

Im my opinion, Greenday didn't • himself out, he got paid what his experience level calls for. I aslo asked earlier how this low paying entry level job is any different from working as a CFI who gets paid crap wages. How is this different from a F/O position with a regional where a second pilot is a must. We are working for regionals at about the same pay rate. Why are you not standing on your soapbox and yelling at the regional F/O's making the same money and calling them •? I am not singleing you out, but you are yelling the loudest.

 

[TaterSalad]

I aslo asked earlier how this low paying entry level job is any different from working as a CFI who gets paid crap wages. How is this different from a F/O position with a regional where a second pilot is a must. We are working for regionals at about the same pay rate. Why are you not standing on your soapbox and yelling at the regional F/O's making the same money and calling them •? I am not singleing you out, but you are yelling the loudest.

You're right, I am yelling the loudest. My guess is it's because all the others have gone down this road, and given up already (which I too am soon to do).

I'll tell you how this "low paying entry level job is any different from working as a CFI............". By the time you're getting a job to fly right seat in a jet, King Air, etc, it's not an entry level job. CFI is an entry level job, with the commensurate pay levels...........or should be anyhow. Just like flying freight *could* be considered an entry level job (though the requirements are pretty high for 135 to be considered entry level). Problem is, CFI's don't consider themselves "professional pilots", so it's not viewed as an entry level position to professional piloting.

And you're exactly right about the regionals. And we've seen the results of the "get me in a jet now, I'll do it for half the cost" mentality. It's called Mesa (just the most obvious offender), and it's destroying any semblance of a real career.

I will admit, it's possible I was just venting. I don't have a solution to offer (and I was always told "if you don't have anything constructive to add, stay quiet"...probably should've listened to that advice), and my ranting won't convince probably even a single person to turn down something like this. I'm not even sure it's possible to ever fix this. Management (and owners) have seen what people will do to fly their jets for them, and is exploiting that knowledge at every turn.

Just frustrated that the career I've always dreamt of, which is finally in reach after years of work in that direction, is in such shambles right now.

 

[GreenDayPilot]

Hey... just want to say that I like what everyone has to say on this subject... ya gotta respect what everyone has to say.

Anyway, for those of you who frown on me for getting the job... does that mean we should do the same for those who announce that they got HIRED by Scenic, Great Lakes, and all the other low paying 121 carriers??? Scenic and Great Lakes pilots get paid $13-15/hour. That's the same amount of money i made IF they fly 100 hours a month. I only flew about 25 hours a month. I also got paid for the time I wasn't flying since its a salaried job... meaning that I sometimes had up4 weeks of paid leave!

Ahh, whatever, I dont like writing pages and pages of stuff... so I'll just stop right here cause I can go on with this forever.