Good to see Eagle MEC has balls

Lots. A carrier that was created to throw a wrench in the Trans State contract negotiations, I don't know, I think we're a little quick to forgive.

We're going to have to make a stand one of these days and even though it's good for national, it makes the rest of us average line Joes fighting the system look like "You're evil, you're evil you're... wait... ooh, dues dollars, welcome to the fold, all is forgiven."

I would not be able to look at a furloughed Trans States pilot in the eye and say, "Yeah, we did the best we could on the underground to fight the rise of alter ego carriers, but they're paying dues now so, well, sorry."
 
Lots. A carrier that was created to throw a wrench in the Trans State contract negotiations, I don't know, I think we're a little quick to forgive.

We're going to have to make a stand one of these days and even though it's good for national, it makes the rest of us average line Joes fighting the system look like "You're evil, you're evil you're... wait... ooh, dues dollars, welcome to the fold, all is forgiven."

I would not be able to look at a furloughed Trans States pilot in the eye and say, "Yeah, we did the best we could on the underground to fight the rise of alter ego carriers, but they're paying dues now so, well, sorry."

Good point. What's the purpose of having any morals, if you're willing to sell them out once the dollars come rolling in? The TSA guys would still end up screwed (or screwed a second time), this time, by their own folks.

When you're willing to sell one group of union "brothers" down the river, just to be able to say you were able to win over another group as new "brothers"....what have you really accomplished? You've only succeeded in losing credibility with the entire concept of "brotherhood". And the organization as a whole WILL suffer for it.

This would be the kind of hypocrisy that I dislike in any organization.
 
I don't get it. Wasn't it TSA that was taking your flying last year, not Gojet? Didn't AE lease 10 emb 145s to fly routes that you guys could have been flying?
This is a letter I would have expected to have been sent by a TSA membership chairman, not AE. Sounds like this guy is more worried about furloughed TSA pilots than furloughed Eagle pilots.
 
This is the FIRST time an official ALPA statement has said ANYTHING about the level of suck over at GoJets. I'm ecstatic that somebody finally said something. I wish it was from the National Furlough Chair instead, but kudos to Eagle for stepping up. I tried to get something put out locally over where I am but for various political reasons it never happened.

I'm happy Eagle had the cajones to do this.
 
I don't get it. Wasn't it TSA that was taking your flying last year, not Gojet? Didn't AE lease 10 emb 145s to fly routes that you guys could have been flying?
This is a letter I would have expected to have been sent by a TSA membership chairman, not AE. Sounds like this guy is more worried about furloughed TSA pilots than furloughed Eagle pilots.

Apples to Oranges.
 
Lots. A carrier that was created to throw a wrench in the Trans State contract negotiations, I don't know, I think we're a little quick to forgive.

We're going to have to make a stand one of these days and even though it's good for national, it makes the rest of us average line Joes fighting the system look like "You're evil, you're evil you're... wait... ooh, dues dollars, welcome to the fold, all is forgiven."

I would not be able to look at a furloughed Trans States pilot in the eye and say, "Yeah, we did the best we could on the underground to fight the rise of alter ego carriers, but they're paying dues now so, well, sorry."

It's not about money. A carrier like GoJet would actually cost ALPA a lot more money than they would bring it. It's a matter of bringing ALL air line pilots under one union. GoJet isn't going anywhere. We've tried to discourage people from going there for years, to no avail. The airline will continue to exist. The question becomes: "is it better for all pilots to let the Teamsters represent this carrier and bring them crappy contract after crappy contract, or to forgive and forget and bring them into the ALPA fold where we have some involvement in their representation?" I think the answer is obvious, as distasteful as it might be.
 
Weird isn't it? I've heard that they have slowed down hiring because there are a lot of street captains and F/O applying. Plus they are even raising their hiring minimums.
 
It's not about money. A carrier like GoJet would actually cost ALPA a lot more money than they would bring it. It's a matter of bringing ALL air line pilots under one union. GoJet isn't going anywhere. We've tried to discourage people from going there for years, to no avail. The airline will continue to exist. The question becomes: "is it better for all pilots to let the Teamsters represent this carrier and bring them crappy contract after crappy contract, or to forgive and forget and bring them into the ALPA fold where we have some involvement in their representation?" I think the answer is obvious, as distasteful as it might be.

And what of the TSA pilots who were being told for so long that "we have your back against these GoJets guys who took your flying"; to now be told by the very same people "accept those same GoJets guys as your brothers because they gave us some money". The common thread is the $$$. In the end, the TSA pilots only become the "collateral damage" of the bigger wants/needs of nationa. They, however, remain disenfranchised. What have they gotten out of the deal? Sold down the river.

Why not, as a union, stick by a set of values that can be truly believed in....not bought off? They got away with it with CAL.

Let me ask you this: With what USAPA has been doing to the AWA pilots......if they decided to come back to ALPA tomorrow, would they instantly cease to be the "scum they are" with what they've done, and would you tell AWA pilots to just let bygones be bygones and be buddies and brothers with them again?

If YOU were an AWA pilot (or TSA pilot in this case) could you honestly tell me you'd be able to look the other way? I know I wouldn't likely be able to. I don't think the AWA guys would trust them as far as they could throw them.

This kind of "greater good" hypocrisy and lack of moral ground will kill the morale of the overall group eventually. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

A matter of bringing ALL airline pilots under one union is fine idea........but at what cost, and to whom?
 
Weird isn't it? I've heard that they have slowed down hiring because there are a lot of street captains and F/O applying. Plus they are even raising their hiring minimums.

I heard the mins were up to 1500/500. Gojet and Compass with the same mins.....crazy.
 
And what of the TSA pilots who were being told for so long that "we have your back against these GoJets guys who took your flying"; to now be told by the very same people "accept those same GoJets guys as your brothers because they gave us some money".

No one is saying anything about money except for you. Again, there would be no money made by organizing GoJet. Money would be lost. This isn't about making money, this is about unifying the profession.

The common thread is the $$$. In the end, the TSA pilots only become the "collateral damage" of the bigger wants/needs of nationa. They, however, remain disenfranchised. What have they gotten out of the deal? Sold down the river.

Alright, time for some "inside baseball." In the summer of 2006, the TSA MEC, then led by Captain Dario Miranda, approached many of the other ALPA MECs with a proposal: cease the denial of jumpseats to GoJet pilots so that an alliance could be built between the TSA and GoJet pilots' leaderships. I was on the PCL MEC at the time, and I personally had discussions with Captain Miranda about this. The TSA MEC wanted all ALPA MECs to sign repicprical jumpseat agreements with GoJet as a form of olive branch to begin the reconciliation process. The GoJet pilot leadership was somewhat receptive at the time to building a relationship.

I fought this proposal tooth and nail, and after much debate on the PCL MEC, managed to convince a majority of the MEC members to refuse the request. To this day the PCL MEC has refused a jumpseat agreement with GoJet. Several other MECs within ALPA also refused to sign agreements, but some of them complied with the TSA MEC's request.

I was wrong, and so were the other pilots that fought this proposal. We should have followed the TSA MEC's request to start building a bridge.

What did we end up gaining in the end by fighting this proposal? What would have happened if we had engaged in a full-scale effort to form an alliance between the GoJet pilots and TSA ALPA as the TSA MEC had wanted? Now, three full years after this was first brought up, the TSA pilots are in worse shape, GoJet is staffing their airline without any problems, and no new contract with a merged seniority list is anywhere on the horizon. We've accomplished less than nothing.

Why do we want to go on accomplishing less than nothing? Why not try to fix this problem? The only solution to the GoJet problem is a single seniority list. The only way to accomplish that is with the help of the GoJet pilots. We need to bring them into the fold to end this quagmire.

Why not, as a union, stick by a set of values that can be truly believed in....not bought off? They got away with it with CAL.

You keep saying "bought off," but money has nothing to do with this. Drop the money and start looking at this from a unity-building standpoint. How are we going to raise up the profession? How are we going to end the whipsaw between TSA and GoJet? What we've been doing so far has not worked. Time for a new strategy.

I'm not big on wild-eyed idealism. I'm big on pragmatism. How do we accomplish what is in the best interests of the TSA pilots and the profession?

Let me ask you this: With what USAPA has been doing to the AWA pilots......if they decided to come back to ALPA tomorrow, would they instantly cease to be the "scum they are" with what they've done, and would you tell AWA pilots to just let bygones be bygones and be buddies and brothers with them again?

I would welcome them back today with open arms. As they are now, they are a constant threat to this profession. The "seniority matters" USAPA jihad needs to stop. Let's bring them back and start working towards upholding our profession.

If YOU were an AWA pilot (or TSA pilot in this case) could you honestly tell me you'd be able to look the other way? I know I wouldn't likely be able to.

I think most AWA pilots would wet themselves from joy at the prospect of leaving USAPA behind and coming back to ALPA, even if it means bringing the Easties back with them.
 
Alright, time for some "inside baseball." In the summer of 2006, the TSA MEC, then led by Captain Dario Miranda, approached many of the other ALPA MECs with a proposal: cease the denial of jumpseats to GoJet pilots so that an alliance could be built between the TSA and GoJet pilots' leaderships. I was on the PCL MEC at the time, and I personally had discussions with Captain Miranda about this. The TSA MEC wanted all ALPA MECs to sign repicprical jumpseat agreements with GoJet as a form of olive branch to begin the reconciliation process. The GoJet pilot leadership was somewhat receptive at the time to building a relationship.

I fought this proposal tooth and nail, and after much debate on the PCL MEC, managed to convince a majority of the MEC members to refuse the request. To this day the PCL MEC has refused a jumpseat agreement with GoJet. Several other MECs within ALPA also refused to sign agreements, but some of them complied with the TSA MEC's request.

I was wrong, and so were the other pilots that fought this proposal. We should have followed the TSA MEC's request to start building a bridge.

What did we end up gaining in the end by fighting this proposal? What would have happened if we had engaged in a full-scale effort to form an alliance between the GoJet pilots and TSA ALPA as the TSA MEC had wanted? Now, three full years after this was first brought up, the TSA pilots are in worse shape, GoJet is staffing their airline without any problems, and no new contract with a merged seniority list is anywhere on the horizon. We've accomplished less than nothing.

I see both sides of that issue, your former side as well as the side you said you should've taken. And I'll fully concede that's the matter isn't as easy an answer as simply picking one side or another. Reconciliation and goodwill are fine things to shoot for, but how is the trust going to be regained between two pilot groups that were previously at odds with one against another (USAPA being a good example, and I'll expand below).

Why do we want to go on accomplishing less than nothing? Why not try to fix this problem? The only solution to the GoJet problem is a single seniority list. The only way to accomplish that is with the help of the GoJet pilots. We need to bring them into the fold to end this quagmire.

I agree with you on this too. Is it going to be easy though, with all the GoJet criticism and worse thats gone on just around this website, is it going to be easy to get guys onboard to accept GoJet and it's crews as now partners? That's the angle I'm coming from on all this.....I agree that unity is far better than any kind of whipsawing or even being different groups altogether.

You keep saying "bought off," but money has nothing to do with this. Drop the money and start looking at this from a unity-building standpoint. How are we going to raise up the profession? How are we going to end the whipsaw between TSA and GoJet? What we've been doing so far has not worked. Time for a new strategy.

Thats fair, I'll drop the $$ aspect of it. Agree with all of the above thus far.

I would welcome them back today with open arms. As they are now, they are a constant threat to this profession. The "seniority matters" USAPA jihad needs to stop. Let's bring them back and start working towards upholding our profession.

I think most AWA pilots would wet themselves from joy at the prospect of leaving USAPA behind and coming back to ALPA, even if it means bringing the Easties back with them.

Here's where I think the one of the biggest challenges would present itself....a USAPA/AWA type situation. OK, assuming USAPA came back into the fold in the name of unity and common cause, you'd have to agree with me that AWA guys accepting them with open arms would be a tough sell. Here would be AWA guys being asked to let bygones be bygones with guys who tried to royally screw them over (screwing with their seniority, thus their jobs and their livelihoods) and have been backstabbing them ever since the merger. You've even got to agree with me that that's asking a heck of a lot. (rhetorical question here) Would there truly be trust between the two? Sure, the two would again be on the same side of the line again, but IMO it'd be very difficult for the past to be written off.

Again, don't get me wrong, I agree with the concept of doing business a new way when the old ways haven't been working to date. But you know as well as I that thats a severe uphill battle. I mean, to the point of bringing Eastern folks back into the fold in the name of unity......to really go the distance that you're proposing, would even likely require dumping or otherwise erasing scab lists; if the proposal is to start from scratch.

Practically speaking, this is going to be a tough sell to the group as a whole, IMHO. If it can be done though, it'd be interesting to see where that change of direction goes.....
 
About 25% of current GOJET pilots have a violation on their record they received while at GoJets, just a FYI.
 
I see both sides of that issue, your former side as well as the side you said you should've taken. And I'll fully concede that's the matter isn't as easy an answer as simply picking one side or another. Reconciliation and goodwill are fine things to shoot for, but how is the trust going to be regained between two pilot groups that were previously at odds with one against another (USAPA being a good example, and I'll expand below).
It has happened in the past. Look at Mesa and Freedom:A. I mean there are still some strained feelings out there in the MAG pilot group, but it has pretty much become a cohesive unit.
 
I agree with you on this too. Is it going to be easy though, with all the GoJet criticism and worse thats gone on just around this website, is it going to be easy to get guys onboard to accept GoJet and it's crews as now partners? That's the angle I'm coming from on all this.....I agree that unity is far better than any kind of whipsawing or even being different groups altogether.

I think it's important to note that while there is a significant number of pilots that hold GoJet in contempt, the majority of pilots don't give it a second thought. It honestly wouldn't be an earth-shaking event in the industry to bring these pilots into the fold. The CAL scab issue was a far bigger problem, and the Association unified very well following that ordeal. In fact, even their own group unified well, eventually electing a former scab to be MEC Chairman.

Here's where I think the one of the biggest challenges would present itself....a USAPA/AWA type situation. OK, assuming USAPA came back into the fold in the name of unity and common cause, you'd have to agree with me that AWA guys accepting them with open arms would be a tough sell.

Without a doubt. There would be acrimony for years to come between those groups. But it would be a much better situation than we currently have.

Again, don't get me wrong, I agree with the concept of doing business a new way when the old ways haven't been working to date. But you know as well as I that thats a severe uphill battle. I mean, to the point of bringing Eastern folks back into the fold in the name of unity......to really go the distance that you're proposing, would even likely require dumping or otherwise erasing scab lists; if the proposal is to start from scratch.

Eastern scabs have been brought back into the fold. All Eastern pilots who crossed the line that now work at AirTran were "forgiven" and made members in good standing. The same has been done at other carriers, also.
 
Out of curiosity, and I ask this in a sincere, non-inflammatory way, what would be the response of ALPA if the AA pilots wanted (and I know that's a big if) to get back into ALPA after everything that happened? Would ALPA want them back? Do you think that as the years & decades go by that the AA membership will want to rejoin?
 
Out of curiosity, and I ask this in a sincere, non-inflammatory way, what would be the response of ALPA if the AA pilots wanted (and I know that's a big if) to get back into ALPA after everything that happened? Would ALPA want them back? Do you think that as the years & decades go by that the AA membership will want to rejoin?

ALPA has wanted the AMR pilots back for many years. So much so that the former TWA pilots even used this desire to concoct a crazy lawsuit claiming that Duane Woerth secretly screwed them over in an attempt to appease the APA leaders and members in hopes of leading to a merger of the two unions. While there is no evidence of that actually happening, there has certainly been a desire by ALPA for a very long time to bring the AMR pilots back. The split happened back in the '60s, and the issues it involved ceased to be relevant decades ago.

I think a merger is certainly a possibility in coming years if Captain Hill and the rest of the APA leadership don't come to their senses in negotiations and start pursuing a realistic strategy. Their current strategy is dooming their members to never-ending negotiations that will not result in a new contract, and the members will only be patient for so long before they start looking elsewhere for help.
 
Just out of curiosity why? And what do other airlines pilots have?


From what I heard it was a paperwork issue with the MEL procedures for something on the airplane. Honestly, there are a lot of gray areas in the MEL books that can lead one down the wrong road and can get one in trouble. What exacerbated the situation for the GoJet Pilots was the FAA POI for GoJets, was a former TSA Pilot and that made him go after them with a little bit of vengeance.

I would say that MAYBE 5% of pilots at anyone airline would get a FAA Violation while employed at that airline. Even that number would be a tad high I would say as well.
 
ALPA has wanted the AMR pilots back for many years. So much so that the former TWA pilots even used this desire to concoct a crazy lawsuit claiming that Duane Woerth secretly screwed them over in an attempt to appease the APA leaders and members in hopes of leading to a merger of the two unions. While there is no evidence of that actually happening, there has certainly been a desire by ALPA for a very long time to bring the AMR pilots back. The split happened back in the '60s, and the issues it involved ceased to be relevant decades ago.

I think a merger is certainly a possibility in coming years if Captain Hill and the rest of the APA leadership don't come to their senses in negotiations and start pursuing a realistic strategy. Their current strategy is dooming their members to never-ending negotiations that will not result in a new contract, and the members will only be patient for so long before they start looking elsewhere for help.

Thank you :)
 
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