good idea to fly with 777 captain?

B767Driver said:
Automation isn't a "crutch to replace bad legs". It's there to supplement pilot skills and to reduce workload in a high stress environment. Automation is "dutiful" but "dumb". It does what the operator asks it to do. The operator needs to be proficient without the use of automation.

What happens when the automation is not working properly and needs to be disengaged. But the operator (I'm won't call him a pilot here) does not have the confidence in his ability to disengage the faulty automation and fly because he lacks confidence in his skills?

What about during a TCAS RA...windshear....quick responses to ATC in a terminal environment, a PRM breakout maneuver close to the ground? These are just a few instances when the automation needs to be let go...and let the pilot fly the airplane. They are tough maneuvers that require some basic sense of airmanship to accomplish.

As pilots, if we're not prepared and confident...in the blink of an eye...to fly our airplanes...bad things will happen.

Our first instinct should be to fly the airplane, not to punch buttons. If the autopilot can help...great...it mostly does a better job...but not always.

I'm not quite sure your mode of thinking is outside of "normal" everyday flying.
Click to expand...

I see more problems with disconnecting the autopilot coming from experienced pilots who have been using automation for awhile now. They try to trouble shoot problems by messing with the buttons rather than disconnecting the system. In my opinion, new guys seem to be the one's with a tendency to click the red button when the automation is doing unexpected things.

And as for "unusual maneuvers"...those are taught in training. If you can't do them then you don't pass (at least this is the way at my company). The goal is to weed out those incapable before releasing them to the line. During my initial training, we had a well liked individual not make it to IOE because of an apparent lack of "basic airmanship" during emergency maneuvering. Sorry to see him go, but that same thing will happen to others not qualified.

Were you supremely "prepared and confident...in the blink of an eye...to fly [your] airplanes" in an emergency situation your first day on the line?
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Right into a pilot's seat? I thought they had to be flight engineers for most of their young adulthood like Don did? Egad. He must have been one of the lucky ones to still be alive.
Click to expand...

How does being a flight engineer make you a safer pilot when the time comes to move to a flying seat? Other than being "in the game" so to speak, it doesn't give you flight experience at the controls.
 
Sorry I am missing a sarcasm tag. I was being darkly sarcastic. Apparently us newbies are supposed to show respect and let the big cheeses do that kinda stuff, but I just read some thread about standing out...haha.

As a crewmember on a large cargo plane, having sat in between the pilots for many takeoffs and landings into some pretty hairy places in the world, I'll tell you it helps, but your right, I never got to actually fly the plane.
 
sleepy3528 said:
GO TO COLLEGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont listen to people who are butt sore about people knocking on their alma mater. check six: sorry you paid too much for your flight training... you might be in financial ruin but dont lead this kid down the same path.

spend that money on a 4 yr degree ( not in aviation) and you wont regret it. No matter your occupation, place in life, or location around the world the degree can be a fall back. YOU DO NOT NEED THIS 17G PROGRAM!!!!!!

check six: you should seriously re-evaluate your advice to impressionable young pilots. i dont care how "financially endowed" you or you daddy was but you have made some BAd financial decisions. You got screwed by FSA or whatever high priced flight training you paid for. If your too dense to realize it then i know why you instructed for six years and know hwy your trying to screw this guy out of his money.

promoting a high priced flight school is like promoting a hooker that gave you crabs. you almost want to see the next schmuck get it worse then you. "yeah she was great bob"
Click to expand...

Well, at least we agree on one thing...definitely go to college. Even if you end up working on a degree while flying. There are many online options available. They're not as fun as the real deal, but what you really need is the diploma (besides, the place to meet your hooker with crabs is during a drunken night in college).

As for my financial state...my parents paid for my attendance at FSA, and I am not ashamed of the opportunity. My training cost $56,000 for PPL-MEI, including room and board. I'm very happy with the experience and wouldn't trade it for anything...the value per dollar was worth it. I said in my previous post...bad financial decisions are those which provide you with no perceived value. I don't judge how you or your family spend your money. But, I assume you spend it on things that have value to YOU. As my parents did for me...I will assist my children in pursuing their dreams either with my time, advice, or yes (God forbid) money. People shouldn't be ashamed for having money considering how hard you have to work to earn it.
 
Check_Six said:
And as for "unusual maneuvers"...those are taught in training. If you can't do them then you don't pass (at least this is the way at my company). The goal is to weed out those incapable before releasing them to the line. During my initial training, we had a well liked individual not make it to IOE because of an apparent lack of "basic airmanship" during emergency maneuvering. Sorry to see him go, but that same thing will happen to others not qualified.
Click to expand...

Previously, you said airmanship wasn't important. Now I guess we have to have it somewhat to get through maneuvers validation.

I'm at airline #4 and I've never been taught airmanship in airline training. You had to bring it or wash out. You basically had one period to perform maneuvers to standards. If you needed extra training...it was a big deal. You were targeted. Two extra sessions...now you're looking at being evaluated as per whether you should continue in the program or not.

My point...and there are exceptions, no doubt...but the average pilot does not have these basic airmanship skills at CMEL minimums. They are setting themselves up for a huge training failure that will follow them for the rest of their careers.

As per operating comfortably in your airplane's environment. A huge step from 10 hours in a seminole to 180kts on final in a jet.

What do standout college athletes say about their first games in the pros? They can't believe the difference in the speed of the game. Some of them never figure it out. However, if they have some baseline skills to fall back on...they will most likely figure it out sooner rather than later.

As far as being "supremely" prepared to handle an emergency...all I can say is that I beat around in single pilot night freight for quite awhile prior to airline #1...and am confident enough in my skills to handle whatever I might find. I'll never say I'll always handle every situation perfectly...but I'm pretty comfortable in my seat.

I've gone from CFI, to charter, to freight to airlines. Each step of the way, it's kinda scary, that I didn't know...what I didn't know. And with that...I've got to call it a day.
 
Check_Six said:
How does being a flight engineer make you a safer pilot when the time comes to move to a flying seat? Other than being "in the game" so to speak, it doesn't give you flight experience at the controls.
Click to expand...

A little bit of FE time (not too much) was priceless. Amazing what you can learn watching from the back seat.
 
BTW, CheckSix, who am I talking to? You have no qualifications listed in your profile. What are your certifications, time, position?
 
In so many words, someone previously mentioned that "people are going into this field not because they love flying airplanes, but because they love the idea of being an airline pilot". Couldn't agree more.

It really doesn't matter how you respond, and there is no wrong answer, but ask yourself this...Would the man (or woman) who truely loved to fly, spend 17 thousand dollars on something that he will go through, and get paid for by his company, or would he (or she) take that money, and actually fly the hell out of a real airplane?

Mill told us that the ends justify the means, so you do what you're going to do, and obviously no one is going to change your mind, and like I said...no wrong answer to this question...

I just think its something to think about.
 
Judging by IM's replies, or lack there of in the last few pages, I think this thread is a lost cause. However, for those not informed on such issues, I hope they read every post and learn something from this.
 
B767Driver said:
BTW, CheckSix, who am I talking to? You have no qualifications listed in your profile. What are your certifications, time, position?
Click to expand...

CIME/SE, CFI/CFII/MEI, AGI/IGI

2000TT
1250ME
950JET

F/O - Airline just put up for sale (if anyone's looking to buy)

Will this be the part where I'm told that my limited experience hardly allows me to understand the situation?
 
MikeOH58 said:
In so many words, someone previously mentioned that "people are going into this field not because they love flying airplanes, but because they love the idea of being an airline pilot". Couldn't agree more.

It really doesn't matter how you respond, and there is no wrong answer, but ask yourself this...Would the man (or woman) who truely loved to fly, spend 17 thousand dollars on something that he will go through, and get paid for by his company, or would he (or she) take that money, and actually fly the hell out of a real airplane?
Click to expand...

Agreed. Those who love the idea of being an airline pilot and not necessarily love the flying are going to make it to flying RJ's or to a larger carrier with experience in only 3-5 airplanes: Skyhawk/Warrior-Arrow-Seminole-RJ...

The fun in taking the less direct route is experiencing different airplanes, situations and people. I have said it before on here and I really think the first people to get burned out on a flying job will be those who jumped right into an RJ from flight training and will not have any other life experience to put things in perspective when things don't turn out exactly how they expected them to. People can look for career advice all over the internet, magazines, FBO's, etc. and choose to interpret the information how they want to. If they decide that getting to fly an RJ at 300 hours will provide them with some self satisfaction fine, good for them. I prefer to have a background of flying experience that is more varied and will allow me to look back through my logbook with fond memories about the different places, planes, situations and people I learned from.
 
Check_Six said:
I see more problems with disconnecting the autopilot coming from experienced pilots who have been using automation for awhile now. They try to trouble shoot problems by messing with the buttons rather than disconnecting the system. In my opinion, new guys seem to be the one's with a tendency to click the red button when the automation is doing unexpected things.
Click to expand...
Thank goodness for us new guys . . . otherwise the older more experienced guys wouldn't know what to do . . .obviously:sarcasm:

Now, I have only been a 121 FO for 18 months, and as I prepare to transition to the left seat, I can only hope that I show the airmanship in ability to fly the airplane as well as nearly all of my Captains. It has been a great position of comfort to know that someone more experienced was with me. I am very aware that soon the more experienced person (in most cases) will be me.

I planned on coming back to this thread to support your dissention with the crowd, me included. I appreciate an educated point of view from whichever side it comes. I can be persuaded with a solid argument. I think you are accurate in that sometimes we do pile on and it is helpful to be shocked out of the lockstep every so often.

I did want to wait for a while to see what else you said. The above post is troubling to me. I don't know how you have the vantage point to see both more experienced pilots and less experienced pilots go through the same profile ( your example of disconnecting the autopilot) as an FO.

Another thing I wanted to point out is how you said in your first post that the military takes people with 300 hours that are "Well screened".
The way FO's are starting to come on line through places like FSI is that FSI, ATP and these other schools are not screening people for their skills, mental stability or aptitude, they are running a credit report.
If you can pay you can go. Not so in the military, or the airline (yet) thankfully.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Wasn't that one of those annoying "Successory" posters?
Click to expand...
oscar.jpg
 
check six: to be honest i was expecting a bit more experience from someone with such strong positions. not to knock on you but how do you know if you did it the right way if you have only been at eagle for a year? your allowed to whatever opinion you like but i thought i was talking with someone who had been in this industry for awhile.
 
First this:

Check_Six said:
I see more problems with disconnecting the autopilot coming from experienced pilots who have been using automation for awhile now. They try to trouble shoot problems by messing with the buttons rather than disconnecting the system. In my opinion, new guys seem to be the one's with a tendency to click the red button when the automation is doing unexpected things.
Click to expand...


Then this:

Check_Six said:
CIME/SE, CFI/CFII/MEI, AGI/IGI

2000TT
1250ME
950JET

F/O - Airline just put up for sale (if anyone's looking to buy)
Click to expand...

I see a disconnect here, the only "new guy" on your airplane is you...





Check_Six said:
And as for "unusual maneuvers"...those are taught in training. If you can't do them then you don't pass (at least this is the way at my company). The goal is to weed out those incapable before releasing them to the line.
Click to expand...

Really? "Unusual maneuvers" as one small simulator segment in a Part 121 airplane training syllabus are going to "weed out those incapable?"

Really?



Check_Six said:
Were you supremely "prepared and confident...in the blink of an eye...to fly [your] airplanes" in an emergency situation your first day on the line?
Click to expand...

Yes... My experience and acquired "sense of airmanship" gave me that...


Check_Six said:
Will this be the part where I'm told that my limited experience hardly allows me to understand the situation?
Click to expand...

No, this will be the part where you will be told that your experience is too limited to be making these kinds of statements...


Kevin
 
staplegun said:
I see a disconnect here, the only "new guy" on your airplane is you...
Click to expand...

Ah yes...experience doesn't make mistakes. Only new guys do.

staplegun said:
Really? "Unusual maneuvers" as one small simulator segment in a Part 121 airplane training syllabus are going to "weed out those incapable?"

Really?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that any portion of the training not passed will be enough to show you the door. But, yes...that specific segment works as an example.

staplegun said:
Yes... My experience and acquired "sense of airmanship" gave me that...
Click to expand...

Right...I'm sure you're first day as an airline pilot you displayed your "acquired sense of airmanship" quite well. We were all superstars on the first day.

staplegun said:
No, this will be the part where you will be told that your experience is too limited to be making these kinds of statements...
Click to expand...

Well, I guess we can just agree that our respective opinions mean absolutely zero to each other.
 
Check_Six said:
CIME/SE, CFI/CFII/MEI, AGI/IGI

2000TT
1250ME
950JET

F/O - Airline just put up for sale (if anyone's looking to buy)
Click to expand...

So, what's with the avatar of the Hornet about get get gunned by the Eagle, and the 'CheckSix" moniker?

I'm thinking you're not doing a lot of six checking as a FO on the flight deck.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top