good idea to fly with 777 captain?

[Cav]

It doesn't matter folks he's long gone.

I always find it funny when someone comes looking for advice and then runs off angry when no one told them what they wanted to hear. What's going to happen on line when a captain like myself, seggy, Matt, or the rest asks them to do something and it's not quite what they had in mind? Having 121 captains flight instructing up fron isn't fair to the passengers in the back. I'm not talking about mentoring here, I'm talking about INSTRUCTING. Someone's first instument approach to mins shouldn't be with 50 people in the back. Sorry sims don't exactly count.

One more example of the microwave generation. I've got to have it NOW, DAMMIT NOW!!!!!!!!

 

[Cruise]

It doesn't matter folks he's long gone.

I always find it funny when someone comes looking for advice and then runs off angry when no one told them what they wanted to hear. What's going to happen on line when a captain like myself, seggy, Matt, or the rest asks them to do something and it's not quite what they had in mind? Having 121 captains flight instructing up fron isn't fair to the passengers in the back. I'm not talking about mentoring here, I'm talking about INSTRUCTING. Someone's first instument approach to mins shouldn't be with 50 people in the back. Sorry sims don't exactly count.

One more example of the microwave generation. I've got to have it NOW, DAMMIT NOW!!!!!!!!

Ha.....I did that very thing just last week. What a blast that was! Not to mention being present when said FO was issued his first hold.....first flight in 'actual' conditions.....first winter ops (I can let that one slide though--that's a function of what part of the country you do your flight training in)....etc. Hell, this guy can't even find the centerline without intervention....OMG, how'd he even get his private/ commercial tickets, let alone pass a PC/ IOE for 121 ops. And, as I've said before, no check-airman override for me!

Yeah, we definitely need more low-time wonders in 121 aircraft.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

I don't think he ran away angry; He took his beating pretty well.
What else was he supposed to do?

If you just sunk $17k into what you believed was a sound and logical approach to flight training, and noone has told you different up until this point, how would you handle getting dogpiled when you just happened to mention it in a thread about something else?

What would you do? Honestly, what would you do?
Dropout and immediately start instructing because some people on an internet forum shredded you for it? Would you continue to believe the people you paid, who can show you proof that their program gets you hired, and pilots have done fine doing it this way before you? Would you now throw away your COE with ASA because what they are doing is wrong? (Even though there is hardly a regional out there not doing some sort of bridge program right now).

 

[SteveC]

I don't think he ran away angry; He took his beating pretty well.
What else was he supposed to do?

If you just sunk $17k into what you believed was a sound and logical approach to flight training, and noone has told you different up until this point, how would you handle getting dogpiled when you just happened to mention it in a thread about something else?

What would you do? Honestly, what would you do?
Dropout and immediately start instructing because some people on an internet forum shredded you for it? Would you continue to believe the people you paid, who can show you proof that their program gets you hired, and pilots have done fine doing it this way before you? Would you now throw away your COE with ASA because what they are doing is wrong? (Even though their is hardly a regional out there not doing some sort of bridge program right now).

:yeahthat:

 

[GJ1]

You guys do understand that you gotta pretty much pay to get any career job? I mean 100-150K in college to work 9-5?

I mean the amount of money you pay for training is it really going to matter how you got there looking back on it? 17k sounds kind of high but you can do the same thing at ATP for like 6k.. I'd truthfully rather pay 6k to get a job flying then the same amount to get my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct for a couple years then get a job for a airline.

BUt thats just me... lol

 

[MSUDAWG]

You guys do understand that you gotta pretty much pay to get any career job? I mean 100-150K in college to work 9-5?

I mean the amount of money you pay for training is it really going to matter how you got there looking back on it? 17k sounds kind of high but you can do the same thing at ATP for like 6k.. I'd truthfully rather pay 6k to get a job flying then the same amount to get my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct for a couple years then get a job for a airline.

BUt thats just me... lol

"You guys do understand?" No you really dont understand....

Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why would ANYONE want to pay to get a job?

You dont PAY to get the job, you pay for education to allow you the opportunity for you to EARN the job of your dreams. Isnt that what college is? You are paying for an education that will lead you to the career of your choice where they will pay YOU and pay FOR you to learn how to do it their way......

 

[Bumblebee]

You guys do understand that you gotta pretty much pay to get any career job? I mean 100-150K in college to work 9-5?

I mean the amount of money you pay for training is it really going to matter how you got there looking back on it? 17k sounds kind of high but you can do the same thing at ATP for like 6k.. I'd truthfully rather pay 6k to get a job flying then the same amount to get my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct for a couple years then get a job for a airline.

BUt thats just me... lol

that's really not just you

 

[B767Driver]

You guys do understand that you gotta pretty much pay to get any career job? I mean 100-150K in college to work 9-5?

I mean the amount of money you pay for training is it really going to matter how you got there looking back on it? 17k sounds kind of high but you can do the same thing at ATP for like 6k.. I'd truthfully rather pay 6k to get a job flying then the same amount to get my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct for a couple years then get a job for a airline.

BUt thats just me... lol

The problem is that airline management would rather search for the lowest levels of proficiency rather than attract better qualifed applicants through improved compensation levels and working conditions. Instead, commuters will do anything to get applicants proficient enough to pass a checkride...i.e. bridge programs.

This is the crux of the matter that bothers professional pilots. If starting commuter pay was $40,000...there would be no need for bridge programs because nobody would need them. There would be tons of night freight and King Air charter jobs, because those co-pilot positions would have lots of turnover. Once again, the civilian progression to an airline job would be restored and lots of rationalily (sp?) would be restored to our profession. The commuters would get new hires again that could make it through training without batting an eye.

 

[SIUAv8r]

Here's my take.

Why is everyone in such a hurry to get to the airlines? Why does everyone have to go the "fast track" route? Forget the RJ course or the money. Take your time and enjoy the ride. If you don't think you would like to be a CFI, fine! Like someone posted before, fly freight, tow gliders/banners, aerial survey, pipeline patrol. I have many friends that were instructors, and then went straight to the airlines, and they all wish that maybe they had done some freight flying, aerial survey. I personally did aerial survey for about 10 months, and I loved it. I'm glad I did it. I actually wish that I had done some freight flying, or instructed a little longer. Don't get me wrong, I love my job flying 121, but it may have been fun to do some other flying jobs too!

 

[bdhill1979]

Well, my boss just called..... He is getting rid of the plane.....................









Trading it in for a P210

Now he is going to PAY ME to get the high altitude endorsement and fly it.


Principle

 

[Check_Six]

Hey Intern_Mike!

I get the feeling that you may no longer be following the responses on this thread. In all fairness, that probably isn't a bad thing. But here's my input...

This thread reminded me of why I rarely stop by this forum anymore.

JetCareers is a forum which I find exemplifies both the best and the WORST of of what pilots have to offer each other. On one hand, there is quality advice to be given and received. On the other, there are many, many people on this forum who are simply INTOLERANT of any method that isn't/wasn't their own. Many of the posters on here huff and puff about their illustrious careers (ex: "Well, I guess you don't want the advice of a real man as evidenced by my ability to command mighty Boeing/Airbus aircraft...blah, blah, blah). :banghead:

I'm pretty sure that none of those posting on this forum were being hired by majors back in the '60s. My old man (just outta the USAF with 3,000TT/2950ME/2000-ish Turbine PIC) was hired by United back then, and many of the guys he spent the next 35 years competing for schedules and aircraft with were hired with 300 TT and no instrument rating. UAL was actually helping new-hires with the IR ticket. And guess what, many of those people retired with him 30-40 years later as captains on 747-400s. Not too shabby. I'm sure they had a steeper learning curve at the beginning, but they still had a very successful career.

Some of my other favorites on here are those that pigeon-hole you based on where you trained, whether or not you want to be a CFI, etc. etc.

You will also find many people on here who apparently came from less than financially endowed backgrounds (as I have never seen so much hatred for those who have/spend money as I do on this board). If you or your family have the money to spend on things like attending FSA and completing sim courses, then more power to you. Those without love to put you down to make themselves feel better about their lives. Good for them for being frugal, but if you've got the means then do what you want.

In response to your situation:

I congratulate you on being successful at FSA! It's a good program (I went there back in '00-'01) and had a blast. I had a great time both with the flying and because of the friends I made.

I'd ignore the people giving you crap about how much FSA costs. Do your training wherever makes you happy/successful regardless of price. If you can afford FSA and they couldn't...well, that's good for you. If you've got a ton of money, but prefer the FBO route then do that instead. It's not wasting money if the perceived value of the final product is what YOU want. Also, if you can't afford FSA I wouldn't financially drown myself trying to get there...same reason why I don't drive any of the cars showcased each month in the Robb Report

As for being a CFI, I instructed for six years (I did it for so long because I love to teach). If you enjoy flying piston aircraft and most importantly love to teach, then PLEASE spend some time as a CFI before going to the airlines. Quality CFIs are in short supply. It sounds like being a CFI isn't really your interest, though. I can respect that as it's not for everyone. Half the people on this board who say that being a CFI before going to the airlines is an absolute must were probably crappy instructors. They might be good pilots, or even great pilots, but many instructors I've met are poor teachers and students would have been better off without them. If you really have an interest in crop dusting, flying traffic watch, etc. then feel free to pursue those options too.

I'd say, if you want to take the RJ sim course route, then study hard (especially IFR procedures), pay attention in the ground school , and focus much of your attention on how to operate the avionics effectively...since the flight guidance controller (basically the autopilot interface) is where most piston pilots struggle. Examples being what modes to use during each phase of flight and why (a lot of it ends up being pilot preference).

Anyways, don't be discouraged by what you read here on JetCareers. Glean advice from those able to give it without injecting a ridiculous amount of , flight-school hating, or financial jealousy into their comments.

Best of luck to you! :rawk:

 

[LoadMasterC141]

That was fantastic Check Six thanks! I am going to post that on my wall!

Well at least we are not blaming the poor guy that thought he was doing a good thing anymore. I blame the rules personally. I blame the government. Maybe the airlines have some knowledge of the risk they are taking hiring less and less qualified applicants; maybe some actually believe it to be less of a risk than you pilots do. Regardless, the law says they can put these people in the seat, so they won't be to blame. Seems crazy I need so many hours to haul boxes, but people I need next to nothing. Also that truck drivers work/rest rules are much more strict than pilots...but hey...there are million abosutely idiotic rules in our society.

If this thread goes the way of the usual weekly 7-pagers on the topic(Well actually I don't think it has been the actual topic in sometime), someone still has to say "Well it will all change when the planes start crashing. That is what it is going to take". I agree. Our government is reactionary in nature unless it is good business to be otherwise.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Hey Intern_Mike!

I get the feeling that you may no longer be following the responses on this thread. In all fairness, that probably isn't a bad thing. But here's my input...

This thread reminded me of why I rarely stop by this forum anymore.

JetCareers is a forum which I find exemplifies both the best and the WORST of of what pilots have to offer each other. On one hand, there is quality advice to be given and received. On the other, there are many, many people on this forum who are simply INTOLERANT of any method that isn't/wasn't their own. Many of the posters on here huff and puff about their illustrious careers (ex: "Well, I guess you don't want the advice of a real man as evidenced by my ability to command mighty Boeing/Airbus aircraft...blah, blah, blah). :banghead:

I'm pretty sure that none of those posting on this forum were being hired by majors back in the '60s. My old man (just outta the USAF with 3,000TT/2950ME/2000-ish Turbine PIC) was hired by United back then, and many of the guys he spent the next 35 years competing for schedules and aircraft with were hired with 300 TT and no instrument rating. UAL was actually helping new-hires with the IR ticket. And guess what, many of those people retired with him 30-40 years later as captains on 747-400s. Not too shabby. I'm sure they had a steeper learning curve at the beginning, but they still had a very successful career.

Some of my other favorites on here are those that pigeon-hole you based on where you trained, whether or not you want to be a CFI, etc. etc.

You will also find many people on here who apparently came from less than financially endowed backgrounds (as I have never seen so much hatred for those who have/spend money as I do on this board). If you or your family have the money to spend on things like attending FSA and completing sim courses, then more power to you. Those without love to put you down to make themselves feel better about their lives. Good for them for being frugal, but if you've got the means then do what you want.

In response to your situation:

I congratulate you on being successful at FSA! It's a good program (I went there back in '00-'01) and had a blast. I had a great time both with the flying and because of the friends I made.

I'd ignore the people giving you crap about how much FSA costs. Do your training wherever makes you happy/successful regardless of price. If you can afford FSA and they couldn't...well, that's good for you. If you've got a ton of money, but prefer the FBO route then do that instead. It's not wasting money if the perceived value of the final product is what YOU want. Also, if you can't afford FSA I wouldn't financially drown myself trying to get there...same reason why I don't drive any of the cars showcased each month in the Robb Report

As for being a CFI, I instructed for six years (I did it for so long because I love to teach). If you enjoy flying piston aircraft and most importantly love to teach, then PLEASE spend some time as a CFI before going to the airlines. Quality CFIs are in short supply. It sounds like being a CFI isn't really your interest, though. I can respect that as it's not for everyone. Half the people on this board who say that being a CFI before going to the airlines is an absolute must were probably crappy instructors. They might be good pilots, or even great pilots, but many instructors I've met are poor teachers and students would have been better off without them. If you really have an interest in crop dusting, flying traffic watch, etc. then feel free to pursue those options too.

I'd say, if you want to take the RJ sim course route, then study hard (especially IFR procedures), pay attention in the ground school , and focus much of your attention on how to operate the avionics effectively...since the flight guidance controller (basically the autopilot interface) is where most piston pilots struggle. Examples being what modes to use during each phase of flight and why (a lot of it ends up being pilot preference).

Anyways, don't be discouraged by what you read here on JetCareers. Glean advice from those able to give it without injecting a ridiculous amount of , flight-school hating, or financial jealousy into their comments.

Best of luck to you! :rawk:

One of the best posts about Jetcareers in the history of this site.

Before you guys reply, re-read what he has to say. Everything is spot on, but here's where everyone gets defensive and starts a ish-storm.

 

[B767Driver]

I'd say, if you want to take the RJ sim course route, , and focus much of your attention on how to operate the avionics effectively...since the flight guidance controller (basically the autopilot interface) is where most piston pilots struggle. :

In other words, since you don't have any stick and rudder skills, you're going to have to rely on the autopilot.

 

[Check_Six]

In other words, since you don't have any stick and rudder skills, you're going to have to rely on the autopilot.

Airline flying, in large part, isn't about "stick and rudder" skills. I hand fly more than most I fly with and still realize that. Airline flying is about managing your environment and your aircraft within that environment safely :sitaware:. When is the last time you busted out a Lazy Eight in an airliner (and even if you did it would probably be with the yaw damper engaged).

The biggest "stick and rudder" skill I want to see from anyone I'm flying with is a quality crosswind landing technique.

 

[B767Driver]

Airline flying, in large part, isn't about "stick and rudder" skills. I hand fly more than most I fly with and still realize that. Airline flying is about managing your environment and your aircraft within that environment safely :sitaware:. When is the last time you busted out a Lazy Eight in an airliner (and even if you did it would probably be with the yaw damper engaged).

The biggest "stick and rudder" skill I want to see from anyone I'm flying with is a quality crosswind landing technique.

Automation isn't a "crutch to replace bad legs". It's there to supplement pilot skills and to reduce workload in a high stress environment. Automation is "dutiful" but "dumb". It does what the operator asks it to do. The operator needs to be proficient without the use of automation.

What happens when the automation is not working properly and needs to be disengaged. But the operator (I'm won't call him a pilot here) does not have the confidence in his ability to disengage the faulty automation and fly because he lacks confidence in his skills?

What about during a TCAS RA...windshear....quick responses to ATC in a terminal environment, a PRM breakout maneuver close to the ground? These are just a few instances when the automation needs to be let go...and let the pilot fly the airplane. They are tough maneuvers that require some basic sense of airmanship to accomplish.

As pilots, if we're not prepared and confident...in the blink of an eye...to fly our airplanes...bad things will happen.

Our first instinct should be to fly the airplane, not to punch buttons. If the autopilot can help...great...it mostly does a better job...but not always.

I'm not quite sure your mode of thinking is outside of "normal" everyday flying.

 

[jrh]

On the other, there are many, many people on this forum who are simply INTOLERANT of any method that isn't/wasn't their own. Many of the posters on here huff and puff about their illustrious careers (ex: "Well, I guess you don't want the advice of a real man as evidenced by my ability to command mighty Boeing/Airbus aircraft...blah, blah, blah). :banghead:

Maybe it's all a matter of perspective. I don't see their advice as coming from a "high and mighty" viewpoint as much as it is a "Yeah, I've been there and done that, and this is my what I think," viewpoint.

You want to be a 767 captain someday? Why not listen to a 767 captain who's already there, doing what you're hoping to do?

You'll notice I don't post on these threads very often, mainly because *I'm not there yet.* I might have ideas about a particular issue, but until I've actually gone out and lived it for myself, I pretty much sit down, shut up, and let the experts have the floor.

I'm pretty sure that none of those posting on this forum were being hired by majors back in the '60s. My old man (just outta the USAF with 3,000TT/2950ME/2000-ish Turbine PIC) was hired by United back then, and many of the guys he spent the next 35 years competing for schedules and aircraft with were hired with 300 TT and no instrument rating. UAL was actually helping new-hires with the IR ticket. And guess what, many of those people retired with him 30-40 years later as captains on 747-400s. Not too shabby. I'm sure they had a steeper learning curve at the beginning, but they still had a very successful career.

You know, I've heard stories like that before, but I've also heard they're urban legends. I'm not calling you out on this, I just don't know what to think. I'd like to learn more. Do you have any historical, verifiable sources I could see?

Some of my other favorites on here are those that pigeon-hole you based on where you trained, whether or not you want to be a CFI, etc. etc.

Again, I think it's a matter of perspective. Everybody has opinions and biases. I don't see it as "pigeon holing" as much as "I've never liked that school [or attitude, or career path, or...] and I'm not afraid to say it."

You will also find many people on here who apparently came from less than financially endowed backgrounds (as I have never seen so much hatred for those who have/spend money as I do on this board). If you or your family have the money to spend on things like attending FSA and completing sim courses, then more power to you. Those without love to put you down to make themselves feel better about their lives. Good for them for being frugal, but if you've got the means then do what you want.

Normally I'd agree with you. There's nothing wrong with a guy who has money spending money. I might think he's dumb, but it's a free world, he can spend his money however he wants.

HOWEVER, it doesn't sound like Intern_Mike comes from money. He's taking out a loan for FSA's program and is concerned about the cost of renting a Seminole for an hour.

When people here screamed "Don't waste your money!" it's because they cared about him, not because they were somehow jealous or wanting to make themselves feel better. They were trying to save him from a financial mistake he very well might regret.

As for being a CFI, I instructed for six years (I did it for so long because I love to teach). If you enjoy flying piston aircraft and most importantly love to teach, then PLEASE spend some time as a CFI before going to the airlines. Quality CFIs are in short supply. It sounds like being a CFI isn't really your interest, though. I can respect that as it's not for everyone. Half the people on this board who say that being a CFI before going to the airlines is an absolute must were probably crappy instructors. They might be good pilots, or even great pilots, but many instructors I've met are poor teachers and students would have been better off without them. If you really have an interest in crop dusting, flying traffic watch, etc. then feel free to pursue those options too.

Very good point. I completely agree!

 

[sleepy3528]

GO TO COLLEGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont listen to people who are butt sore about people knocking on their alma mater. check six: sorry you paid too much for your flight training... you might be in financial ruin but dont lead this kid down the same path.

spend that money on a 4 yr degree ( not in aviation) and you wont regret it. No matter your occupation, place in life, or location around the world the degree can be a fall back. YOU DO NOT NEED THIS 17G PROGRAM!!!!!!

check six: you should seriously re-evaluate your advice to impressionable young pilots. i dont care how "financially endowed" you or you daddy was but you have made some BAd financial decisions. You got screwed by FSA or whatever high priced flight training you paid for. If your too dense to realize it then i know why you instructed for six years and know hwy your trying to screw this guy out of his money.

promoting a high priced flight school is like promoting a hooker that gave you crabs. you almost want to see the next schmuck get it worse then you. "yeah she was great bob"

 

[Chris_Ford]

Maybe it's all a matter of perspective. I don't see their advice as coming from a "high and mighty" viewpoint as much as it is a "Yeah, I've been there and done that, and this is my what I think," viewpoint.

You want to be a 767 captain someday? Why not listen to a 767 captain who's already there, doing what you're hoping to do?

Because he's on the highest horse of them all.

Look a lot of the people on this website benefited from pure, unadulterated LUCK. A fork in the road and they chose the right one completely unknowingly. Now, however, they act as if it is their SKILL that got them to where they are. Not to mention that there's some sort of swagger of flying a larger airliner than someone else...

You know, I've heard stories like that before, but I've also heard they're urban legends. I'm not calling you out on this, I just don't know what to think. I'd like to learn more. Do you have any historical, verifiable sources I could see?

My college roommate's dad. Hired with an IR, I believe, but only had his PPL-IR, no Commercial yet. Paid for by United. Retired off the 747.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

My college roommate's dad. Hired with an IR, I believe, but only had his PPL-IR, no Commercial yet. Paid for by United. Retired off the 747.

Right into a pilot's seat? I thought they had to be flight engineers for most of their young adulthood like Don did? Egad. He must have been one of the lucky ones to still be alive.