Go Jets Questions

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And no, you don't "not represent" first year pilots. True, ALPA can't protect a first year pilot from discipline issues but still, they're an ALPA pilot on probation with the company for one year. You still have all services available in terms of medical help, insurance, etc.

That's not what I'm referring to. There are few pilots usually that are actually receiving first year pay at any given time. And a large number of them are usually just about to hit second year pay. So, when negotiating first year rates, who you're really negotiating those new rates for are the guys yet to start class. Those pilots are not represented, and those are the ones the NMB largely thinks of when you spend a lot of time arguing about first year pay. In short, the NMB doesn't have much patience for it.

And no, don't insult me with a release from the NMB issue. It ain't gonna happen.

Talking about the realities of RLA bargaining is not "insulting" you. It's just reality. Bargaining under the RLA requires you to deal with the NMB. In order to get anywhere, you have to stay on their good side. Arguing for months (or years) about things that they find to be frivolous is not a path to success. And first year pay is one of those areas.

No, in this case, management is being reasonable, and YOU are being unreasonable. If I run a company and need to pay wages, I'll look at what others are getting in todays market for that same job. I don't care about their contracts or when they were signed. What I care about, as a negotiator, is what they make now.

You make my point for me, even though you can't see it yourself. When one airline gets a contract 10 years ago that pays a 150-seat pilot $120/hr, but three carriers have gotten contracts within the past 2 years that pay $150/hr for the same number of seats, what do you think the current market rate is? If you say $120/hr, then you're delusional. The current market rate is what has been recently negotiated, not what was negotiated 10+ years ago. Those rates are irrelevant. They do not represent the current labor market.

Hahahahaaa Pinnacle and ASA. Right. Look at XJT's contract from 2004, and that was far better than what we got at 9E in 2011.

And again, you make my point for me without even realizing it. XJT's contract 2004 is no longer the market rate for 50-seat RJ pilots. Just like Comair's contract 2001 does not represent the market rate. Instead, the recently negotiated agreements represent the current market rate. That rate is the industry standard.

And btw, what's your definition of the difference between industry standard and industry average?

I think that's been explained pretty clearly. Industry average is nothing more than a math calculation. You average the rates from all of the carriers operating similar airframes. Industry standard, however, is the current market rate as dictated by the bargaining pattern, as described above.

Stop lying about Pinnacle. Pinnacle took 5 years because the union were chest thumpers that demanded too much and kept the pilot group out in the cold about the overall picture. Pinnacle had SEVERAL offers of new contracts, including a last and final best offer in 2006. If we had accepted that, we would have had that for 5 years and been negotiating off that today.

You really don't know what you're talking about. I was on the MEC in 2006 when the company made that "last, best, and final offer." It happened to be about the dozenth time they made a so-called "last, best, and final offer," by the way. They made a new one constantly, because they thought that using those buzzwords would scare us into taking their crappy offers. But in reality, their proposals were so horrible that no one in their right mind would consider them. The offer that you refer to from 2006 represented pay rates that were barely adjusted from the old rates (in other words, still near the bottom of the industry), only small adjustments to work rules, no in-depth rules on PBS, etc. It was a horrible proposal, and we told them to shove exactly where it belonged. Your suggestion that we should have taken that deal is laughable. But not surprising from someone speaking from a position of ignorance while pretending to be an authority on things in which you have no experience.

I don't admit to cash hemmorhaging like you claim it to be.

Actually, you did. You know, when you said "despite the cash hemorrhaging." But don't let facts get in the way. You certainly haven't yet.

They were duped because several carries took paycuts to help stay out of bankruptcy, and that back fired in their face when all went to BK and then forced round #2 of cuts. And no, failing to take paycuts would NOT have resulted in liquidation. The company would have declared bankruptcy, entered Chptr 11, and then dumped the union contract through filing motion 1113. Concessions, to the degree given up by your beloved ALPA carriers, were NOT necessary (read again: NOT to that degree).

So, your solution to giving cuts that you claim "were not necessary" was to allow a bankruptcy judge to instead make even deeper cuts? Do you even listen to yourself before you type this stuff?

Anyway, back to where this whole argument started. You were concerned about VA affecting your ability to demand a payraise for 2nd year SWA pilots making $150,000.

Actually, I'm quite happy with our current rates. Sure, everyone likes a little extra money, but it's not my carrier that I'm really worried about right now. We'll likely get nothing more than COLA adjustments in this bargaining cycle, because we're too far ahead of the pack already. I'm more worried about the guys at places like Delta, United, and American, where they have a long way to go to catch up to our current rates, and your rates are an anchor holding them back.

Your previous employment record, Gulfstream academy and airline, Pinnacle, all under the old 1999 agreement, making the lowest RJ wages in the country, well after the amendable date, and then finally Airtran in 2007 when they were still under their old contract, making them one of the LOWEST paid national carrier pilots. Only by sheer luck did you hit the lottery when SWA bought your airline, and now all of a sudden you are worried about Virgin's affect on your ability to get payraises at Southwest. Nevermind your career track of working at some of the worse, bottom scum paying operators in the airline industry. Nice to hear that Virgin is now finally what breaks the camel's back. Ironic, considering where you came from. You are where you are today because you worked for the lowest paying regional airlines and a national airline. If you felt that strong about it, you shouldn't have seeked employment at Gulfstream. If you felt that strongly about it, you shouldn't have accepted a job at Pinnacle. And the same for Airtran. It's one thing to have your attitude against Virgin if you came from ExpressJet in 2004 and Southwest in 2008. Then I could understand. I'd say, yeah, this guy has held the line and came from quality high paying regional and a major airline, so his beef is understandable. But considering you came from Gulfstream, Pinnacle, and Airtran, you don't have much ground for your hatred of Virgin.

When I went to Pinnacle, we had middle of the pack rates for 50-seat RJs. I know you were still and engineer way back then and didn't know a damned thing about the industry, but you might want to check your facts before making such claims. Likewise, when I came to AirTran, we made industry standard wages for our equipment, as well. Hardly the "worse, bottom scum paying operators" that you claim.

Your one valid point is that I began my career at Gulfstream. As you know, I agree that that was a mistake. I was a stupid kid who didn't know any better. If I had it to do over again, I would. Unfortunately, such luxuries aren't available in this life. But a mistake 12 years ago has nothing to do with knowing what is right now.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And by the way, Cherokee, I know who you are. My background certainly didn't seem to bother you when you asked me for a recommendation letter for your Pinnacle interview back in 2007. I was happy to provide it at the time, but with your attitude now, I wonder whether I made a mistake in doing so. Another mistake that can't be undone. Oh well.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That's not what I'm referring to. There are few pilots usually that are actually receiving first year pay at any given time. And a large number of them are usually just about to hit second year pay. So, when negotiating first year rates, who you're really negotiating those new rates for are the guys yet to start class. Those pilots are not represented, and those are the ones the NMB largely thinks of when you spend a lot of time arguing about first year pay. In short, the NMB doesn't have much patience for it.

Basically sold down the river by all parties involved.

Talking about the realities of RLA bargaining is not "insulting" you. It's just reality. Bargaining under the RLA requires you to deal with the NMB. In order to get anywhere, you have to stay on their good side. Arguing for months (or years) about things that they find to be frivolous is not a path to success. And first year pay is one of those areas.

You don't have to tell me, but tell that to the old negotiationg team at 9E. The ones who were recalled.

You make my point for me, even though you can't see it yourself. When one airline gets a contract 10 years ago that pays a 150-seat pilot $120/hr, but three carriers have gotten contracts within the past 2 years that pay $150/hr for the same number of seats, what do you think the current market rate is? If you say $120/hr, then you're delusional. The current market rate is what has been recently negotiated, not what was negotiated 10+ years ago. Those rates are irrelevant. They do not represent the current labor market.

As a manager, I will not look at who signed what at a certain point in time. I will tell you that Pilot A makes $120/hr right now flying a 737, and Pilot B, C, D make $150/hr flying a 737, then the market rate, IMO, should be $142.50, which is the industry average at that point in time. You already admit that only the pilot union has that viewpoint that old/amendalbe wages should not be considered, and yet airline management negotiators do look at it.

And again, you make my point for me without even realizing it. XJT's contract 2004 is no longer the market rate for 50-seat RJ pilots. Just like Comair's contract 2001 does not represent the market rate. Instead, the recently negotiated agreements represent the current market rate. That rate is the industry standard.

You're arguing that "recently negotiated agreements" represent the current market rate. So for the A320, who "recently negotiated agreements." Last I recall, it was all the legacies, taking it in the rear with concessionary contracts.

think that's been explained pretty clearly. Industry average is nothing more than a math calculation. You average the rates from all of the carriers operating similar airframes. Industry standard, however, is the current market rate as dictated by the bargaining pattern, as described above.

What recent and current bargaining pattern has there been for A320 airlines? United? US Air? Jetblue (non union, by the way)? Delta?

You really don't know what you're talking about. I was on the MEC in 2006 when the company made that "last, best, and final offer." It happened to be about the dozenth time they made a so-called "last, best, and final offer," by the way. They made a new one constantly, because they thought that using those buzzwords would scare us into taking their crappy offers. But in reality, their proposals were so horrible that no one in their right mind would consider them. The offer that you refer to from 2006 represented pay rates that were barely adjusted from the old rates (in other words, still near the bottom of the industry), only small adjustments to work rules, no in-depth rules on PBS, etc. It was a horrible proposal, and we told them to shove exactly where it belonged. Your suggestion that we should have taken that deal is laughable. But not surprising from someone speaking from a position of ignorance while pretending to be an authority on things in which you have no experience.

Gee, in retrospect, yeah I'd rather have that last and final best offer than make 20.73/hr, 24.39/hr, 30.09/hr and 33.28/hr at Pinnacle. Proposals are always horrible, it just depends on whose side of the table you are on. Management's proposal was horrible to you, and yours was horrible to them.

Actually, you did. You know, when you said "despite the cash hemorrhaging." But don't let facts get in the way. You certainly haven't yet.

I quoted your words, and I shouldn't have. The cash situation was bad, but it was nowhere close to the worst case monster scenario that airline management played it out to be. They have, and always had, bankruptcy code to protect themselves with to get all the cuts they could possibly want.

So, your solution to giving cuts that you claim "were not necessary" was to allow a bankruptcy judge to instead make even deeper cuts? Do you even listen to yourself before you type this stuff?

No. My solution is to never take a voluntary paycut, unless forced to do so in bankruptcy court. Every single major that took voluntary paycuts, at some point ended up in bankruptcy court for round #2 of BK cuts. AA held out the longest, but even they went BK now in 2012.

Actually, I'm quite happy with our current rates. Sure, everyone likes a little extra money, but it's not my carrier that I'm really worried about right now. We'll likely get nothing more than COLA adjustments in this bargaining cycle, because we're too far ahead of the pack already. I'm more worried about the guys at places like Delta, United, and American, where they have a long way to go to catch up to our current rates, and your rates are an anchor holding them back.

Virgin should be the last concern for anyone at AA in bankruptcy, because a bankruptcy judge WILL dictate what the new payrates will be for the Airbus and Boeing pilots at AA (once motion 1113 is filed and the judge grants relief). As for United, they have their own in house crap going on with Continental, and those two pilot groups are getting hot headed from what I hear. Delta is the one leading the pack with the contract they have, and I hope they continue to improve. JetBlue, Virgin, and Spirit all pay less, and JetBlue and Spirit have been around for a while now. Heck, even your airline SWA has been around DECADES flying 737 in the 70s, 80s, and 90s at horrendous wages compared to the legacies, so where was your moaning back then about this?

By the way, with VA's new payrates, Spirit FOs and Captains years 1-7 make at or less than our VA FOs and Captains years 1-7, and I'm talking about the recent 2011 wages that Spirit gained in an ALPA contract after striking.

When I went to Pinnacle, we had middle of the pack rates for 50-seat RJs. I know you were still and engineer way back then and didn't know a damned thing about the industry, but you might want to check your facts before making such claims. Likewise, when I came to AirTran, we made industry standard wages for our equipment, as well. Hardly the "worse, bottom scum paying operators" that you claim.

At Pinnacle, even at the 2005 payrate, we made lower than Mesa pilots. How do you back up a statement that you were "middle of the pack rates" for 50 seat RJs? I know for fact Mesa paid more than 20.73/hr first year and more than 24.39/hr second year on the RJ. Why don't you post names of regional airlines that paid LESS than Pinnacle's 2004 or 2005 payrates. Mesa was bottom barrel for RJ operators, and even they had a higher W2 than Pinnacle pilots at the same seat, same year. Skywest had a lower first year pay rate (19.02/hr) but 2nd year was mid 30s (35+). Eagle was higher, ASA had low first year but higher than Pinnacle for year 2 and onwards, so what RJ airlines are you talking about?

Your one valid point is that I began my career at Gulfstream. As you know, I agree that that was a mistake. I was a stupid kid who didn't know any better. If I had it to do over again, I would. Unfortunately, such luxuries aren't available in this life. But a mistake 12 years ago has nothing to do with knowing what is right now.

It's not really a mistake. I don't care about it. No one should care. You went to an airline that got you to where you are today, and that's that, it was nothing more and nothing less. I don't hate on the Gulfstream or GoJet crowd.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

And by the way, Cherokee, I know who you are. My background certainly didn't seem to bother you when you asked me for a recommendation letter for your Pinnacle interview back in 2007. I was happy to provide it at the time, but with your attitude now, I wonder whether I made a mistake in doing so. Another mistake that can't be undone. Oh well.

I do appreciate the letter. Back then, I had zero clue on the airline industry and the evils of both management AND unions. The last 4.5 years opened my eyes to a lot of stuff, and realized plenty of faults with the 9E union. I apologize that I did not grow up to be an ALPA lover. How could I, after all the crap I saw happening within the union? My attitude is good in regards to flying and all the other good things of life. But the union topic and airline management topic are the places I go sour.

Oh, and despite what you say, ALPA cannot reprsent the interests of both regional and major pilots at the same time. Regionals exist at the expense of majors. I saw a mainline ALPA sponsored march to "take back the flying" from their regional counterpart. A valiant effort, and a good cause, however, as a regional pilot who pays dues, I got to watch my union march against the flying I do. ALPA is on its way down. Jetblue said no thanks, US Air gave ALPA (and BINDING ARBITRATION) the middle finger, Delta has an internal strife and push for a non-ALPA union, and who knows what will become with UniCal. AA has APA, your own Southwest is SWAPA, UPS is IPA, etc etc etc. ALPA will not exist long term.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Basically sold down the river by all parties involved.

Life isn't always fair. And that's certainly the case in bargaining.

You don't have to tell me, but tell that to the old negotiationg team at 9E. The ones who were recalled.

Mistakes were certainly made by the PCL MEC and NC in negotiations. That's why they ended up getting parked indefinitely by the NMB. But your conclusions are way off the mark about where those mistakes were made.

As a manager, I will not look at who signed what at a certain point in time.

Of course not. Managers will try to paint the picture that looks best for them, just like unions will paint the best picture for them. But what matters is what the NMB will take seriously. What the NMB pays attention to is the current bargaining environment. They pay no attention to baseless management arguments about what the USAirways pilots agreed to in bankruptcy many years ago. Remember, I speak from experience here. I just finished a contract under this NMB. I was there at negotiations for three years. I know how this stuff works. Try to learn from people with experience instead of drawing your own conclusions without the experience from which to draw them correctly.

You're arguing that "recently negotiated agreements" represent the current market rate. So for the A320, who "recently negotiated agreements." Last I recall, it was all the legacies, taking it in the rear with concessionary contracts.

You keep focusing on the A320, but that's not what matters. Other airframes are included as well, such as the 737, and even the larger DC9 variants, just as the MD-88/90. The A320 does not operate in a vacuum. Other similar airframes exist as well, and they count in bargaining.

Management's proposal was horrible to you, and yours was horrible to them.

No, our proposals were always quite reasonable when I was on the MEC. We never had an attitude of shoot for the moon and hope to get something less. We were more pragmatic. Things changed when there was some turnover on the MEC, granted, but that doesn't mean that accepting a horrible proposal in 2006 was the smart move. Instead, the smart move would have been better management of the process following that proposal.

No. My solution is to never take a voluntary paycut, unless forced to do so in bankruptcy court. Every single major that took voluntary paycuts, at some point ended up in bankruptcy court for round #2 of BK cuts. AA held out the longest, but even they went BK now in 2012.

That would have simply resulted in a quicker path to bankruptcy with even deeper cuts. Pilots at those carriers likely made more money over the long run than if they had followed your strategy. That's why we have professional negotiators and bankruptcy attorneys to advise us on this stuff instead of just listening to line pilots who have no experience in these matters. Do you really think that you know better than these experts?

Heck, even your airline SWA has been around DECADES flying 737 in the 70s, 80s, and 90s at horrendous wages compared to the legacies, so where was your moaning back then about this?

You weren't around to see it, but I was certainly "moaning" about it. The SWA rates before the bankruptcy era were certainly a drag on bargaining. But, SWA had a union, and they negotiated a CBA that included rapid pay increases, which solved that problem. The current SWA rates are basically the same rates that the legacies had prior to bankruptcy. The majority of that increase was negotiated prior to 9/11. Those rates just didn't increase until much later under the terms of the CBA. That's the difference between SWA and Virgin. Yes, their rates were lower, but they had a union to correct that problem. You don't. And I have yet to see a real drive over there to fix that deficiency. Instead, you defend your lack of a union. That's troubling.

By the way, with VA's new payrates, Spirit FOs and Captains years 1-7 make at or less than our VA FOs and Captains years 1-7, and I'm talking about the recent 2011 wages that Spirit gained in an ALPA contract after striking.

Again, you need to look at what happens to the Spirit rates over the term of the agreement. There are rapid increases that start to kick in next year, similar to those big increases that SWAPA built into their pre-9/11 agreement. Management wasn't willing to agree to huge increases on the front end of the CBA, but they were willing to accept big raises in the later years. Those years are about to begin. Meanwhile, you still won't have a union or a CBA.

At Pinnacle, even at the 2005 payrate, we made lower than Mesa pilots. How do you back up a statement that you were "middle of the pack rates" for 50 seat RJs?

Simple: I didn't go to work at Pinnacle in 2005. I started at Pinnacle in early 2002. A lot happened in the next few years, including new agreements at Mesa, Republic, and ExpressJet. A lot happened before you started paying close attention to this industry. You don't know it all.

It's not really a mistake.

Yes, it was. It demeans the profession. I didn't understand that then, but I do now. Hopefully you'll eventually come to understand that not having a union and a CBA at your carrier is also bad for the profession.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The last 4.5 years opened my eyes to a lot of stuff

No, the last 4.5 years just lead you to draw faulty conclusions. Instead of understanding that a union is about the people who volunteer and are elected to run it, you instead condemn unions in general. You had problems with your local MEC. Understood. I had problems with the NPA at AirTran, so I got myself elected and changed it. That's how you fix problems. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Talk to Captain Wychor. He can explain the unusual situation there. The short answer is that Mesaba management made some huge errors in the latter stage of bargaining that put the Bush NMB in a tough spot, and they really had no choice but to release Mesaba. They stalled as long as possible, though.

I spoke to my reps about it years back, especially when Pinnacle was going through their negotiations. I still had a lot of interest about it from my time at Colgan. In fact the story is so convoluted it's especially interesting hearing it from all the line pilots side and the union reps side. They have explained it many times, it's a long story, and TW gave yet another (15 minute) synopsis at the last picketing event a couple weeks back. At no time did the reps or TW make it sound like management threw us a walk on home run.

The biggest and funniest mistake was cancelling all the flights so we could all be released, hit the day of the release, sit at home paid, while the contract was signed off and negotiated out.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

ONE LIST!

 

[derg]

ONE LIST!

Tacos!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Life isn't always fair. And that's certainly the case in bargaining.

Aint that the truth. Except in many cases, the union has hindered forward movement.

Mistakes were certainly made by the PCL MEC and NC in negotiations. That's why they ended up getting parked indefinitely by the NMB. But your conclusions are way off the mark about where those mistakes were made.

They pi$$ed of their own pilot group enough for heads to start rolling (recalls).

Of course not. Managers will try to paint the picture that looks best for them, just like unions will paint the best picture for them. But what matters is what the NMB will take seriously. What the NMB pays attention to is the current bargaining environment. They pay no attention to baseless management arguments about what the USAirways pilots agreed to in bankruptcy many years ago. Remember, I speak from experience here. I just finished a contract under this NMB. I was there at negotiations for three years. I know how this stuff works. Try to learn from people with experience instead of drawing your own conclusions without the experience from which to draw them correctly.

I was sharing my viewpoint. You can bring whatever you want to the table, but management will paint the picture that looks best for them, even if that includes current pay at United and US Airways.

You keep focusing on the A320, but that's not what matters. Other airframes are included as well, such as the 737, and even the larger DC9 variants, just as the MD-88/90. The A320 does not operate in a vacuum. Other similar airframes exist as well, and they count in bargaining.

Still didn't answer the question, what recent bargaining process has their been at an A320 carrier (Delta, Jetblue, US Air, United).

No, our proposals were always quite reasonable when I was on the MEC. We never had an attitude of shoot for the moon and hope to get something less. We were more pragmatic. Things changed when there was some turnover on the MEC, granted, but that doesn't mean that accepting a horrible proposal in 2006 was the smart move. Instead, the smart move would have been better management of the process following that proposal.

Obviously management didn't think so. We nearly broke the record for the longest time since amendable date (nearly).

That would have simply resulted in a quicker path to bankruptcy with even deeper cuts. Pilots at those carriers likely made more money over the long run than if they had followed your strategy. That's why we have professional negotiators and bankruptcy attorneys to advise us on this stuff instead of just listening to line pilots who have no experience in these matters. Do you really think that you know better than these experts?

Professional negotiators? Really? Best as I recall, Pinnacle had line pilot volunteers on the negotiating team (some guy named Zach who was recalled or left). Pinnacle sent its pilots on the negotiating team (CT at one point too, if I remember right). And these examples continue with the merger committee. Just a bunch of line pilots with zero experience in seniority negotiations.

You weren't around to see it, but I was certainly "moaning" about it. The SWA rates before the bankruptcy era were certainly a drag on bargaining. But, SWA had a union, and they negotiated a CBA that included rapid pay increases, which solved that problem. The current SWA rates are basically the same rates that the legacies had prior to bankruptcy. The majority of that increase was negotiated prior to 9/11. Those rates just didn't increase until much later under the terms of the CBA. That's the difference between SWA and Virgin. Yes, their rates were lower, but they had a union to correct that problem. You don't. And I have yet to see a real drive over there to fix that deficiency. Instead, you defend your lack of a union. That's troubling.

There is a drive by VAPA. And stop making excuses for SWA. Even despite their profits and CBA, they still make newhires pay for type ratings, and no one else does that. I got a free PIC type rating at my employer, and that's how it should be. Oh wait, let me guess, first year guys, right? Yeah, sell 'em down the river. The CURRENT Swa rates were increased a couple years ago, on a 2 year TA. In the 9/11 environment, Southwest wages were still projected to be well lower than pre-9/11 legacy carriers.

gain, you need to look at what happens to the Spirit rates over the term of the agreement. There are rapid increases that start to kick in next year, similar to those big increases that SWAPA built into their pre-9/11 agreement. Management wasn't willing to agree to huge increases on the front end of the CBA, but they were willing to accept big raises in the later years. Those years are about to begin. Meanwhile, you still won't have a union or a CBA.

We're like Jetblue, there is a work committee and we have a work agreement that spells out the rules, current pay, etc. And in my opinion, the whole dollar today versus 1.50 five years from now doesn't hold much water. From all you know, the carrier will declare bankruptcy once the contract hits those years and then dismiss it under BK rules. Kinda like what's happening to Pinnacle. Everybody was cheering about the huge accomplishment of catching the Q captain rates to the -200 rates in the year 2015... but all that is a moot point when you declare bankrutpcy today and file motion 1113.

Simple: I didn't go to work at Pinnacle in 2005. I started at Pinnacle in early 2002. A lot happened in the next few years, including new agreements at Mesa, Republic, and ExpressJet. A lot happened before you started paying close attention to this industry. You don't know it all.

That's even worse, Pinnacle's rates in 2002 under the 1999 agreement for the 50 seaters were among the worst, if not the bottom barrel. The 1999 CBA was a crappy contract for growth for jets.

Yes, it was. It demeans the profession. I didn't understand that then, but I do now. Hopefully you'll eventually come to understand that not having a union and a CBA at your carrier is also bad for the profession.

No it isn't. Everyone is in a different position. I saw what ALPA did for Pinnacle. The junior pilots were sold out on more than one occasion. We were kept in the dark in regards to management offers. 5 years was not just managements fault. Anyway, look at Jetblue. Twice now they have turned down alpa. What did you expecct when JetBlue has pilots screwed by ALPA? You think the TWA gus will vote yes?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No, the last 4.5 years just lead you to draw faulty conclusions. Instead of understanding that a union is about the people who volunteer and are elected to run it, you instead condemn unions in general. You had problems with your local MEC. Understood. I had problems with the NPA at AirTran, so I got myself elected and changed it. That's how you fix problems. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I have a problem with not just the local MEC. My problem is also with national ALPA and their impossible goal to represent the best interests of both mainline and regional carriers. ALPA's actions in the last 10 years have made them unpopular among many pilots, and it's my personal opinion you will see more carriers step away from ALPA. Give it time.

 

[derg]

I have a problem with not just the local MEC. My problem is also with national ALPA and their impossible goal to represent the best interests of both mainline and regional carriers. ALPA's actions in the last 10 years have made them unpopular among many pilots, and it's my personal opinion you will see more carriers step away from ALPA. Give it time.

My oh my, aren't we the expert as of late!

I just got my ALPA 15 year pin and I don't profess to know how the system works or what the core challenges are. But then, the more I know, the less I realize I know so YMMV!

 

[Baronman]

Interesting argument between two guys who probably very alike in many respects regarding their careers.

 

[CFIT99]

Interesting argument between two guys who probably very alike in many respects regarding their careers.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I was sharing my viewpoint. You can bring whatever you want to the table, but management will paint the picture that looks best for them, even if that includes current pay at United and US Airways.

And the NMB will ignore it, so not sure what your point is.

Still didn't answer the question, what recent bargaining process has their been at an A320 carrier (Delta, Jetblue, US Air, United).

Delta, USAirways, and United are all in Section 6 negotiations as we speak. JetBlue doesn't have a union yet, but likely will within the next couple of years, and then their own negotiations will start.

Obviously management didn't think so. We nearly broke the record for the longest time since amendable date (nearly).

Again, faulty conclusions. Just because management didn't sign on the dotted line, didn't mean that they didn't find our proposals reasonable. It just meant that they wanted to drag the process out longer to delay in accepting something reasonable. Typical management tactic in bargaining. The longer they can stall, the longer they can keep paying old rates.

Professional negotiators? Really? Best as I recall, Pinnacle had line pilot volunteers on the negotiating team

That's the best you can recall, because you have zero experience and no knowledge of how this stuff works. Pinnacle ALPA's professional negotiator has been with ALPA for a great many year, and is probably one of our best. Her name is Jane Schraft. Top notch attorney and negotiator. Every Negotiating Committee in the Association works with a professional negotiator throughout the bargaining process, and in many cases, multiple professional negotiators are present for specialized topics such as benefits.

And stop making excuses for SWA. Even despite their profits and CBA, they still make newhires pay for type ratings, and no one else does that. I got a free PIC type rating at my employer, and that's how it should be. Oh wait, let me guess, first year guys, right? Yeah, sell 'em down the river.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm opposed to the policy of making newhires pay for a type rating. I think it demeans the profession, and it especially stopped making sense when they purchased an airline with a different type in the fleet. What good is a 737 type if you end up as a newhire on the 717? But in reality, your company paid type rating doesn't mean a whole lot by comparison when you consider the vast difference in pay rates. The higher SWA pay rates more than make up for the cost of the type rating. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it a bit silly for you to brag about getting a company paid type rating while making such low rates by comparison.

The CURRENT Swa rates were increased a couple years ago, on a 2 year TA.

The new contract signed two years ago only contained a 2% pay raise on date of signing, and profitablility based raises that could vary from 1-2% per year for the next two years. That's not where the big jump in rates came from, obviously. When that deal was signed, 737 captains were already making $210/hr. The big jump came years earlier under the old contract.

That's even worse, Pinnacle's rates in 2002 under the 1999 agreement for the 50 seaters were among the worst, if not the bottom barrel. The 1999 CBA was a crappy contract for growth for jets.

Wrong. Our rates weren't steller, but they were middle of the pack. Plenty of 50-seat operators were making less than we were at the time.

Anyway, look at Jetblue. Twice now they have turned down alpa.

More incorrect "facts." You really should try a quick Google search on some of this stuff before you keep making yourself look like a fool. There has only been one ALPA vote at JetBlue. The previous vote was for an independent union called the JetBlue Pilots Association (JBPA).

What did you expecct when JetBlue has pilots screwed by ALPA? You think the TWA gus will vote yes?

Actually, yes, a lot of TWA pilots voted for ALPA at JetBlue. Some even helped out with the campaign. The same was true at AirTran. Again, those pesky facts getting in the way....

 

[WacoFan]

I hope TWA rapes ALPA and takes all their money. I love TWA. TWA UBER ALLES!

Oh - and I hope the AA pilots get the same deal the APA offered. TWA UBER ALLES!

 

[Polar742]

 

[Zidac]

 

[Cptnchia]

Oh - and I hope the AA pilots get the same deal the APA offered. TWA UBER ALLES!

What makes you think that the APA isn't going to be driving the bus on any intergration. Even discounting the wests numbers, the APA is the majority and would be the surviving union. Don't expect USAPA to get their DOH.

 

[WacoFan]

What makes you think that the APA isn't going to be driving the bus on any intergration. Even discounting the wests numbers, the APA is the majority and would be the surviving union. Don't expect USAPA to get their DOH.

My only rooting interest in the transaction is widescale mayhem and internet drama, as well as AA pilots getting a crappy deal like APA crammed down the TWA pilots throats with the assist from ALPA. That's what I've been hoping for. TWA UBER ALLES! I just love to see karma come around - it's always awesome to watch.