Go-Arounds

[AM011309]

Anyone feel free but I mostly have airline pilots and those types of aircraft and company procedures specifically in mind when I ask.

From doing fams I see that during the approach briefing you go over the charted missed apch, but I think most places have their own thing they do with you in case of a go around.

If you initiate the go around, or if it’s kind of last minute and the controller says go around but doesn’t immediately give you another instruction for some reason, what do you start climbing to? The MA altitude?

So then when the controller assigns the altitude they want and issues a turn, when do you want that? I know when you’re 100ft off the ground you aren’t going to start turning, do you wait til 500’? 1000’? If I give you a turn and altitude on the go around is that too much or are you like, “...really???”

 

[A300Capt]

I can’t remember the last time ATC told me to G/A and didn’t assign a heading and altitude....in VFR conditions.

I can generally tell when a G/A is coming due to tight traffic separation or the tone/stress in the controller’s voice or simply watching the traffic ahead of me miss the last high speed...

When is a good time to assign the heading? Well, guess it all depends on the individual but probably when you see the initial pitch-up attitude on the initial G/A is probably the busiest for the crew. A lot of procedural things and call-outs are happening right about then.

Personally, I like something in the neighborhood of “UPSxxx, go -around..fly headingxxx and maintain 4000’..” or in VFR conditions I’m generally gonna fly rwy heading initially so, maybe rapid fire headings and altitudes right after you see the gear come up. There’s generally a little pause after the initial flaps/ gear up call when we start breathing again...

Great questions though....

 

[Cptnchia]

This topic is under discussion currently at my shop. The company’s new stance is that if you’re flying a visual, you climb to 1500 feet AGL and fly the traffic pattern in the absense of other instructions from the tower. There are however, certain exceptions. Some airports, due to terrain, climb gradient, noise abatement, etc, where we are required fly the MA even for a visual. These are listed in our company pages.

Of course, in all instances where I’ve been issued a GA by a controller on a visual, I’ve been given a heading and altitude. I’ve also requested straight out and been given it too, wham asked.

 

[Roger Roger]

“Go around, expect long landing”

 

[jtrain609]

Anyone feel free but I mostly have airline pilots and those types of aircraft and company procedures specifically in mind when I ask.

From doing fams I see that during the approach briefing you go over the charted missed apch, but I think most places have their own thing they do with you in case of a go around.

If you initiate the go around, or if it’s kind of last minute and the controller says go around but doesn’t immediately give you another instruction for some reason, what do you start climbing to? The MA altitude?

So then when the controller assigns the altitude they want and issues a turn, when do you want that? I know when you’re 100ft off the ground you aren’t going to start turning, do you wait til 500’? 1000’? If I give you a turn and altitude on the go around is that too much or are you like, “...really???”

The three airlines I've worked for all set missed approach altitude from the chart at some point on the approach. If it's a true visual, or a charted/RNAV visual without a missed approach altitude, we'll set 1,500' above field elevation. If we go around and you don't say anything, and there's a charted path, we're probably following that (and with the way we have the Airbus programmed at my shop, the plane WILL fly the charted missed on it's own unless you intervene). If not, we'll probably go straight out unless we'll hit something.

So a good example of not hitting something is a go around at LAX, and a good example of hitting something is a go around in San Francisco.

 

[derg]

This topic is under discussion currently at my shop. The company’s new stance is that if you’re flying a visual, you climb to 1500 feet AGL and fly the traffic pattern in the absense of other instructions from the tower. There are however, certain exceptions. Some airports, due to terrain, climb gradient, noise abatement, etc, where we are required fly the MA even for a visual. These are listed in our company pages.

Of course, in all instances where I’ve been issued a GA by a controller on a visual, I’ve been given a heading and altitude. I’ve also requested straight out and been given it too, wham asked.

The thing that drives me nuts about that is that it basically assumes you're in SimWorld(tm) without respect to terrain or even airspace. But I've always briefed "in lieu of tower instructions, we're going to fly the published". I think about going missed from landing north in Orlando, you're going to be playing bumper planes with Exec.

I kind of figure it's like how some desk jockey proclaimed in the late 1990's that we're better off answering ATC callsign first.

 

[AM011309]

Thank you all for the input!

I can’t remember the last time ATC told me to G/A and didn’t assign a heading and altitude....in VFR conditions.

Personally, I like something in the neighborhood of “UPSxxx, go -around..fly headingxxx and maintain 4000’..” or in VFR conditions I’m generally gonna fly rwy heading initially so, maybe rapid fire headings and altitudes right after you see the gear come up. There’s generally a little pause after the initial flaps/ gear up call when we start breathing again...

Great questions though....

Ok that’s good - i like it. I’ll use that! (Situation permitting of course). So you have the clearance right away and will comply as soon as speed and altitude permit I assume.

Some discussion here about when to give the turn, too many control instructions at once in a high-workload time, etc.

 

[A300Capt]

Ok that’s good - i like it. I’ll use that! (Situation permitting of course). So you have the clearance right away and will comply as soon as speed and altitude permit I assume.

I also like..."Southwestxxx, reduce to slowest practical speed, I'm gonna put UPS in front of you. UPSxxx keep your speed up!"

Too soon?

 

[CFI A&P]

Missed approach usually has instructions to climb through a certain altitude before commencing the turn.

If not, the norm is no turns below 400’ AGL.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

The three airlines I've worked for all set missed approach altitude from the chart at some point on the approach. If it's a true visual, or a charted/RNAV visual without a missed approach altitude, we'll set 1,500' above field elevation. If we go around and you don't say anything, and there's a charted path, we're probably following that (and with the way we have the Airbus programmed at my shop, the plane WILL fly the charted missed on it's own unless you intervene). If not, we'll probably go straight out unless we'll hit something.

So a good example of not hitting something is a go around at LAX, and a good example of hitting something is a go around in San Francisco.

Missed approaches have plate instructions. Go arounds, at least here in KPHX are typically in VFR conditions and are vectored by ATC. Like @A300Capt said: "Air Shuttle #1597, fly runway heading, maintain 4000. Contact departure control on 119.6. Blah, blah, blah."

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Go-arounds are usually the most cluster-frakky of "normal" procedures, it seems; we do not do enough of them.

Here in MSP, a go-around is -usually- going to be runway heading and six thousand (except 35, where it's "go left, right now, here comes @Derg in the Airbus offa the left"), with a turn shortly thereafter, even under instrument conditions, regardless of the published MA. Radar is a wonderful thing.

People tend to brief published missed approaches when they're shooting visuals at my shop, as we lack guidance for this topic. Ditto re: lack of guidance on how the guidance panel/mode control panel/flight control panel/whatever it is I can't even remember panel, the thing with the knobs and buttans shall be set for the visual.

(On my airplane, a plausible go-around altitude of not lower than 1,500' AFE is loaded into the window. Ye who windeth the GP/MCP/whatever ALT knob up to 10,000' is asking for stupidity.)

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Go-arounds are usually the most cluster-frakky of "normal" procedures, it seems; we do not do enough of them.

Here in MSP, a go-around is -usually- going to be runway heading and six thousand (except 35, where it's "go left, right now, here comes @Derg in the Airbus offa the left"), with a turn shortly thereafter, even under instrument conditions, regardless of the published MA. Radar is a wonderful thing.

People tend to brief published missed approaches when they're shooting visuals at my shop, as we lack guidance for this topic. Ditto re: lack of guidance on how the guidance panel/mode control panel/flight control panel/whatever it is I can't even remember panel, the thing with the knobs and buttans shall be set for the visual.

(On my airplane, a plausible go-around altitude of not lower than 1,500' AFE is loaded into the window. Ye who windeth the GP/MCP/whatever ALT knob up to 10,000' is asking for stupidity.)

It's easy. Make sure the published missed is in the FMS and that you're familiar with it. Dial in the published missed approach altitude at the appropriate time (glideslope capture or inside the FAF on the way down). If they tell you to fly that, you're good. If not just do what they tell you.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It's easy. Make sure the published missed is in the FMS and that you're familiar with it. Dial in the published missed approach altitude at the appropriate time (glideslope capture or inside the FAF on the way down). If they tell you to fly that, you're good. If not just do what they tell you.

I mean, I'd want it to be that simple.

(It is not, as has been established above; there is no missed for a visual.)

 

[Cptnchia]

I mean, I'd want it to be that simple.

(It is not, as has been established above; there is no missed for a visual.)

There is. It’s a visual maneuver. What did you do on a T&G during training? You climb to pattern altitude, (1500ft AFE,) and re-enter the traffic pattern. Or do what the tower tells you what to do.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

There is. It’s a visual maneuver. What did you do on a T&G during training? You climb to pattern altitude, (1500ft AFE,) and re-enter the traffic pattern. Or do what the tower tells you what to do.

I agree. (now go straighten everyone else out.)

 

[BrettInLJ]

Here in MSP, a go-around is -usually- going to be runway heading and six thousand (except 35, where it's "go left, right now, here comes @Derg in the Airbus offa the left"), with a turn shortly thereafter, even under instrument conditions, regardless of the published MA. Radar is a wonderful thing.

I would strongly suggest they phrase that “go left, immediately”.

There is. It’s a visual maneuver. What did you do on a T&G during training? You climb to pattern altitude, (1500ft AFE,) and re-enter the traffic pattern. Or do what the tower tells you what to do.

This. At our shop an email came out reminding us to set pattern altitude, not the missed approach altitude when cleared for a visual, even if backing it up and flying the path of an instrument approach. In practice I have seen a bit of everything.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I would strongly suggest they phrase that “go left, immediately”.

Man, just a few weeks ago there was a Be36 on the ILS6 to TEB that randomly decided rwy11 at EWR looked like his destination. The controller told him “turn right now heading 360!” meaning immediately, but understandably the pilot turned right and flew 1/2 mile from the departure end of EWR 4 at 1500 with departures rolling. Good times.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Man, just a few weeks ago there was a Be36 on the ILS6 to TEB that randomly decided rwy11 at EWR looked like his destination. The controller told him “turn right now heading 360!” meaning immediately, but understandably the pilot turned right and flew 1/2 mile from the departure end of EWR 4 at 1500 with departures rolling. Good times.

Controller phraseology fail

Of course, had pilot not pilot failed...

 

[NovemberEcho]

Controller phraseology fail

Of course, had pilot not pilot failed...

Yeah. As soon as I heard him I say it I was like “uhhhh you told him turn right.” Too late.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Yeah. As soon as I heard him I say it I was like “uhhhh you told him turn right.” Too late.

A few years ago a Hawker was taken off the approach on short final in TEB.( if I I recall something like cancel approach clearance, fly the published) They never hit the toga button, so when they reselected FMS it just took them runway heading. They popped out of a cloud right between 22L/R at KEWR @1000 ft. Kinda surprised everybody including tower, was fun watching them break off the departures and approaches. apparently the Hawker also realized their mistake when they saw the airport and decided to try to comply with the missed procedure. I'm sure somebody got a phone number on that one.