spoolinup22
Well-Known Member
Post it notes seem to be a bit more challenging and it's not recommended to pull the breakers so what's everyone's method of ruining their students day?
Glass simulated failures
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JustinS
Well-Known Member
For the G1000 we have made covers out of a soft material with holes cut out to place it over the buttons on the PFD or MFD. The cutout simulates an AHRS/ADC failure by covering the attitude indicator, airspeed, altimeter, and HSI (except for a small portion to see needle deflection). The only thing that is hard to get around, is the fact that the needle still has orientation to your heading on the HSI you just can't see you're heading but it doesn't act like a true AHRS failure where the needle would just be straight up and down no matter what heading you were flying. I'd share pictures, but I don't have access to them right now.
will_fly_for_bandwith
Well-Known Member
Find a redbird local to you.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
Yes, but it's more intense and real in the airplane when you're flying a Cessna 172 and your scan is awful twisting your head all over the place to see your standbys (below the G1000), the MFD, and looking up at the compass for magnetic heading... I'll have to send you a photo of what I use to cover parts of the screen that simulate failures. I just realized you asked in general... I was assuming Instrument training.
As a private pilot the biggest thing you can do is just cover the screen completely. We have velcro above each screen, and a black piece of clothe that we stick over a screen to simulate a PFD or MFD failure for our Private students.
What failures did you have in mind specifically?
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I'm thinking instrument here as well. All a private pilot should have to worry about is the screen going black. Partial failures aren't as bad.
During instrument it still isn't realistic for failures to just cover stuff up. An ACARS failure will cause the HSI to turn into a classic Nav. You will lose a set of Coms as well I believe. You can't appropriately do instrument approaches in the aircraft during training while simulating an ACARS failure without pulling a breaker.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
With the exception of the HSI needle rotating in relation to your magnetic heading. The cover makes it so you have to fly by your standbys and compass. Students struggle a lot flying partial panel in the G1000 equipped Cessna 172, and the level of difficulty there parallels the simulator from what I've seen while instructing instrument.
Here is a great article written by a friend of mine.
http://www.flyhpa.com/2011/08/dealing-with-ahrsadc-failures/
tlewis95
I drive planes
Those foam covers (that Cessna gave us a dozen or so of with our new airplanes) up at dispatch work really well...
Or when you forget those just dimming the screens works for a screen failure into reversionary mode.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
No idea why I was saying ACARS.
AHRS failures can not be be fully done in the aircraft. Yes heading and such can be done but you can't do a VOR approach partial panel. Not to mention the needle moving around on the HSI gives the student a good visual reference for heading.
AHRS failures can not be be fully done in the aircraft. Yes heading and such can be done but you can't do a VOR approach partial panel. Not to mention the needle moving around on the HSI gives the student a good visual reference for heading.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
At our school we can, and we do. There is a small hole cut out in the cutout to see needle deflection, but the compass is still needed to know what heading to fly to hold FAC track.
Sadly it does. Most students somehow when given that can't think that through, and they're forced to really use the compass by their own thinking...
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
In the G1000, a loss of AHRS doesn't normally affect the navigation equipment (GIAs), so you should still have VLOCs and GPSs. You can even do ILS and LPV approaches with the AHRS inop.
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Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Swing and a miss.
Talking about training for the failure. Since pulling the breaker is frowned upon there really is no good way to properly simulate the failure.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
I agree with you on that one.
There's no way to make the AHRS go nutty and then draw a red X over the ADI and HSI, which is what the AHRS will do when it breaks. Unless you're in the simulator, of course.
What are the odds that Joe Blow has been trained to do that without primary attitude-heading information on a G1000 airplane? Not trying to belabor the point here, but...
The mask isn't a perfect way to simulate a failure, but it's pretty good for meeting the FAA PTS. Simulators are the best to train for G1000 failures, but really when it comes to AHRS/ADC dual failures I think the PTS needs to be revised to reflect the miniscule odds of that failure scenario. I've written up quite a few vacuum powered standby attitude indicators, but never once had an AHRS/ADC dual failure. If I recall, the mean time between failures for the GDC/GRS is on the order of 10,000+ hours.
I think in a TAA a better task to evaluate would be an approach with an attitude miscompare or with a PFD or MFD failure (all of which I've had). I also think there needs to be an endorsement for IFR in either round dials or in the specific glass cockpit system, since someone who's done all their IFR training in a G1000 172 and hops into a /U 150 can pile it in pretty quickly. Same goes the other way.
Insurance companies have been doing this for some time, either requiring a certain amount of hours, an IPC in type, or a FITS certificate in type. Who knows, though...the 2020 ADS-B mandate will probably result in a bunch of spam cans turning into aluminum cans unless a cheap ADS-B Out solution is produced. There might not be any round dial trainers left soon :-(
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I think in a TAA a better task to evaluate would be an approach with an attitude miscompare or with a PFD or MFD failure (all of which I've had). I also think there needs to be an endorsement for IFR in either round dials or in the specific glass cockpit system, since someone who's done all their IFR training in a G1000 172 and hops into a /U 150 can pile it in pretty quickly. Same goes the other way.
Insurance companies have been doing this for some time, either requiring a certain amount of hours, an IPC in type, or a FITS certificate in type. Who knows, though...the 2020 ADS-B mandate will probably result in a bunch of spam cans turning into aluminum cans unless a cheap ADS-B Out solution is produced. There might not be any round dial trainers left soon :-(
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spoolinup22
Well-Known Member
Great points taken. I guess I should really revise the thread to ask what kind of emergencies you give your private and IFR students.
So far it sounds like private is best to cover the entire screen and or dim the lights.
IFR- reversionary mode, best in simulator
So far it sounds like private is best to cover the entire screen and or dim the lights.
IFR- reversionary mode, best in simulator
JustinS
Well-Known Member
And one more point. Since a person would have to fly partial panel on a check ride they should have some practice flying a simulated AHRS/ADC failure in the airplane. Even if does not seem to be as effective as doing an actual failure in a flight simulator, it is still challenging in the actual airplane.
As far as what I did with my students...hate to say it, but teach to the examiner's ride. With my 141 instrument students I did VOR or RNAV approaches with no vertical guidance down to minimums. That was what they had to do on the ride, so that's mainly what we did. If I had spare block hours, they got the full spectrum of failures in the FTD. My CFII students got a FTD lesson with every failure I could replicate and a briefing on what I couldn't replicate if they were instructing in the 172 or planning on it.
Some DPEs aren't as up to speed on the G1000 and don't have a mask and haven't read Garmin's guide for DPEs and CFIs. I heard of a student who had the DPE ask him to fail his attitude indicator. His response? Hit the big red button and say "it won't fail." (Not true). I also knew a student who took off for his private pilot checkride and the DPE put a sectional over the PFD and MFD and held it there for most of the ride.
The moral of the story? If you have the option, find a DPE with G1000 experience. There's so much ignorance about the system, even over 8 years after it was introduced. The first guy I send for a checkride in a G2000-equipped TTx is probably going to end up teaching the DPE...and as much as I like my pass rate, I want my students to have a fair ride that's a learning experience.
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Some DPEs aren't as up to speed on the G1000 and don't have a mask and haven't read Garmin's guide for DPEs and CFIs. I heard of a student who had the DPE ask him to fail his attitude indicator. His response? Hit the big red button and say "it won't fail." (Not true). I also knew a student who took off for his private pilot checkride and the DPE put a sectional over the PFD and MFD and held it there for most of the ride.
The moral of the story? If you have the option, find a DPE with G1000 experience. There's so much ignorance about the system, even over 8 years after it was introduced. The first guy I send for a checkride in a G2000-equipped TTx is probably going to end up teaching the DPE...and as much as I like my pass rate, I want my students to have a fair ride that's a learning experience.
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Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
While that is true, the wiring especially as the aircraft age and get modified is going to be the weak point. While I have never seen an AHRS physically fail, I've seen lots of EFIS components go offline or become intermittent due to damaged wiring. Granted, Cessna probably did a lot better job routing and protecting wiring in their new aircraft than most folks do in a retrofit install, but the possibility remains.
On a related note, I have no idea who at Cessna thought it was a good idea to put the two most critical EFIS boxes on the same circuit breaker.
One more thing that people training in the G1000 should be aware of is that in a real AHRS out situation, the track vector on the MFD (which many instructors teach as an aid for tracking a course partial panel) may eventually freeze despite the fact that the system is still getting a GPS track. No idea why, but every time a "friend of mine who does not follow the letter of the manufacturer's recommendation about pulling circuit breakers quite as closely as I do" pulled the breaker on his students it would inevitably freeze. IIRC even the sim doesn't replicate this...
My personal feeling is, forget the recommendation and pull the breakers. If you have to replace them after 5000 hours, oh well. They're not that expensive and we do all sorts of other things in training that are not recommended for the best life of aircraft components, so why skimp on training realism in this one particular area?
The track vector would freeze with older software. With 563.26 that shouldn't happen; rather it will revert to track up orientation instead of heading up.
As far as wiring goes, without giving any company information away, I wouldn't worry. I've flown the very first NAV III Cessna and it's still going strong
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As far as wiring goes, without giving any company information away, I wouldn't worry. I've flown the very first NAV III Cessna and it's still going strong
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