Getting out?

jwp_145 said:
I agree with you on 99% of what you just said, but it just seems as though no good would come of the negativity, and more and more of it is posted everyday.
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Do you ever feel better when you vent?
Do you ever feel better when you vent and there are others venting with you?

If you take a look at my posts, I'm not the type to keep much of what I feel inside and let it brood...

If I'm thinkin' it, I have no issues saying it..

My suggestion to you.. If you see a title like.. "Talk about pink!" and don't like to hear people talk about the color pink, I wouldn't venture into that thread..

Similarly, if you see a thread called.. "Getting out?" and don't like to hear people talk about getting out, I wouldn't venture into that thread.. :)
 
tonyw said:
On the other hand, if you didn't start aviation training while you were in college and you've gotten used to being paid a professional's salary, then many people have a tendency to say, you've got to be kidding me when someone offers a wage that's too far below it.

I think the aviation industry is going to lose career changers. When you've worked your way up to an income where you can afford to pay for flight training, the idea of going back to $20K a year just doesn't sit too well.
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Thats for certain! After making a livable wage, it would be very tough to go back to making what I did in high school.

I dont think the industry will lose career changers altogether though, it wont lose me anyway. I will however, use my current situation to the best of my ability, to make the switch on my own terms.
 
tonyw said:
You know, when I was part of a flying club, one of the things that struck me was how the guys who did fly for airlines all said the most fun they had flying was tooling around in a C172 on a clear and a million day.

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There's alot of truth to that. There's alot to be said about flying when it isn't work. Take me for instance: Started in light planes like everyone else, eventually moved to the AF with multiple tours in the A-10 and culminating in the F-117, one of the highest tech aircraft in the AF to date. But you know what? Flying those planes was work. There was very little time to just sit back and enjoy the flight. That's because those planes aren't just planes, they're weapons systems that are to be employed......they just happen to fly.

Here's why I could never just sit back and enjoy the flight:

I had a multitude of cockpit tasks going on while tooling along low level, for example. First, eyeing terrain to make sure I'm doing my job of pilotage correctly (ie- matching terrain features with what's on my map to make sure I'm going the right way), avoiding hitting the ground/power lines/near rocks/far rocks, keeping track of my timing per leg [if I'm going for a specific TOT, or Time Over Target], keeping track of my other aircraft in my formation, insuring my weapons panel is set correctly [such as setup change from air-air to air-ground], going over and over in my mind what the attack plan is [formation, role, weapon, timing, attack axis], and being ready to flex to a different plan if the first one gets screwed up [such as unplanned threats pop-up], keeping an eye on fuel and hoping the tanker is airborne and will be where they say they will so I can get gas....and what I'll do if they aren't, and maintaining overall SA over the operation; all while moving at 300 AGL/350 (or more) KIAS; and all this in addition to trying to see and avoid.

I'd literally come back from some sorties absolutely mentally, and sometimes physically, bushed. Very few times could I really enjoy the flight for what it was, and that was on the rare VFR trip to ferry a plane to/from depot. Even the ocean crossings were work, and when they weren't, there was nothing to see.

So when at CBP where I work now, my branch put out a request for volunteers for the Piper PA-18 Super Cub, I was all over it. I'd LOVE to go back to my roots of a slow airplane, low altitude, flying with the window open, tailwheel, VFR, enjoy the flying along with the patrol mission.....airplane. My required cup of knowledge would be very low (not too many ops limits/numbers), and flights would be easy, unlike the checkrides in the F-117 that were akin to getting a PhD evaluation. Helos are a totally different world of fun, but we're talking fixed wing here.

NOW.....contrast this with the common direction many people go......small plane to big. Most people started in small light singles and yearned for the airlines.....a form of SJS to a certain extent; not bad, but just the desire to advance into bigger/better/more interesting. And that's cool and natural. Me? I've seen the top of the mountain (as it relates to what I wanted out of aviation), and it was good. I can handle nearly everything that can be thrown at me....not out of any ego trip or overconfidence, but simply from having been there and done that in many different venues many times. From terrible WX...enroute, being unable to get into a field, having to divert from an alternate when the WX went down there to; to nearly running out of fuel, to getting stuck VFR on-top in a VFR plane, near midairs, one accident, to getting shot at many a time. Have been there, nearly out of options and nearly out of ideas, with the "WTF do I do now?" question going, when events or action on my part......planned or unplanned....allowed the situation to eventually go my way. True knock-on-wood times sometimes. All those events, and many more in my career have allowed me to gain experience, increase my SA bag of tricks, see something I haven't yet seen or learn something I hadn't yet known, and ultimately.....allow me to gain wisdom, be more humble, and learn that I really have nothing to prove to anyone. And still, I learn new things and experience new stuff.....to this day and beyond. Here and now, something like a Super Cub would just be some true fun, retro stick and rudder flying. Have flown the square engines, round engines (favorite), turboprops, and jets in my time, and each was interesting in their own way; some more work than others.

This is the kind of thing that those airline pilots are talking about, Tony.

As has been said, it's a journey, not a destination.......just like the old (but true) "grass is greener" story of the pilots that keep looking up at planes above them in the sky, and wishing they were there instead of where they currently were.....except for the highest guy.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again: All jobs suck. Someones all jazzed up to be an accountant? Talk to me after a year in the cube and living in "Office Space." As an engineer I am making less now then what I made back in 2001, I have had to make several moves (position wise) to stay employed. EVERY industry is hurting.

I am not saying that people getting out of flying are stupid, but would rather lay out the facts for them just the same as someone going into aviation. Most outside of aviation don't work 9-5, they work more. Add in a commute to and from work everyday plus a non-paid lunch. Last minute overtime, last minute weekends, last minute trips, etc. Deadlines require working late all the time. The workload always increases and never decreases. True, most see their families everyday (if they're not traveling) but it is usually for only an hour or two before the kids head off to bed. The layoff threats are always around, the cost cutting never stops. Customers are relentless (mine are military and commercial airlines). I could go on and on but I always try to have fun at work and realize it is only a job.

In closing (:)) the grass isn't always greener but good luck to those looking to make a move...I hope it works out for the best.

PS - I am writing this from my desk...at 9:21 PM EST :(
 
BCTAv8r said:
I started out making more fueling airplanes at the local FBO.
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I made more than that as a first year ramper for a regional airline. I know senior rampers who made more than many regional captains, with some overtime. Crazy when the guy dumping the lavs is making more than the guy flying the plane.
 
pullup said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: All jobs suck. Someones all jazzed up to be an accountant? Talk to me after a year in the cube and living in "Office Space." As an engineer I am making less now then what I made back in 2001, I have had to make several moves (position wise) to stay employed. EVERY industry is hurting.


In closing (:)) the grass isn't always greener but good luck to those looking to make a move...I hope it works out for the best.

PS - I am writing this from my desk...at 9:21 PM EST :(
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What really jazzed me up about being an accountant was talking to other people who are already accountants and are very satisfied with their jobs. Yes there are some negatives, but those come with any job. Working in a cube is really not a negative for me. An airplane cockpit is just a different type of cube. After throughly researching the accounting career, I believe that the positives far outweigh the negatives. Being home most nights, a very decent salary and benefits, no more risking my life trying to dodge thunderstorms with no onboard weather radar, and better job security. I could go on, but you get the idea. Deciding to make this type of career change was no small decision for me, and I can assure you I did a great deal of research on it.

If some is just as jazzed up to be a pilot despite all of the negatives, I think that is wonderful and I wish them all of the best. Just because it isn't for me does not mean that it is not for someone else. At least I can say that I tried it.
 
pilot4500 said:
What really jazzed me up about being an accountant was talking to other people who are already accountants and are very satisfied with their jobs. Yes there are some negatives, but those come with any job. Working in a cube is really not a negative for me. An airplane cockpit is just a different type of cube. After throughly researching the accounting career, I believe that the positives far outweigh the negatives. Being home most nights, a very decent salary and benefits, no more risking my life trying to dodge thunderstorms with no onboard weather radar, and better job security. I could go on, but you get the idea. Deciding to make this type of career change was no small decision for me, and I can assure you I did a great deal of research on it.

If some is just as jazzed up to be a pilot despite all of the negatives, I think that is wonderful and I wish them all of the best. Just because it isn't for me does not mean that it is not for someone else. At least I can say that I tried it.
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Absolutely, and I encourage you to do what is best for you and your family. Just wanted to lay it out and give you a first-hand perspective before you made the move. Is it worth it? Sometimes, and sometimes I really would like to be flying for a living. Right now the timing doesn't work out for me (positives outweigh the negatives).

Now you just have to survive the commute with the rush hour indy 500 drivers. Good luck!
 
Rome wasen't built in a day.. And that is what most pilot's think they deserve when they get the airline job. We all start at the bottom. When your a doctor you work 36 hrs straight making 36-45 a year for 3 years or more. Lawyers work 70-90 hrs a week for 50-70 for some years. And us pilots make 20-22 to start. When you move to the left you make a living wage. Now I know the begining number needs to change, but changes come from within. Not venting here, but I know what is like to get out. I got out about 2 yrs ago because I just couldn't make the commute. I moved from base back to where I was from. I was lucky to find something else I love, I don't have to work much and get to moonlight, I have the perfect scheduel to fly for an airline again if any were hiring.
 
LX40 said:
To each his own. However, that doesn't mean pilots should have to work for wages that amount to a steaming pile of dung. I believe pilots have a right to "whine" about what is going on because things changed for the worse during the course of their careers. That being said, there is a potential to make things a lot better.

Not everyone is in a position to master a new body of knowledge, surplus of financial savings in your case, and work for low wages. The bottom line remains that being a pilot is a professional position and should be paid a professional wage. Period. Nobody in any career should have to use savings to support their career. That is completely crazy. It is absolutely amazing to me that kids these days are willing to save so they can afford/pay to "work" as a professional. That makes absolutely no sense to me. I certainly hope this isn't going to be the way of the future. Otherwise these tough times we see now will be known as the good ole days. Should things be progressing instead of regressing?

Earning a professional wage that will provide a nice retirement, support family, a comfortable living and eating a nice hot healthy meal would make the job not only a lot more fun and enjoyable but very rewarding too.

Honest question: does this new generation of pilots really have no concept of self worth or what a professional wage should be?
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You are absolutely right. However, my interpretation of what gliderboy was trying to say is that if you REALLY want to fly for a living, a road less traveled is saving up for your training and planning a smoother transition (while knowing what you're getting into -eyes wide open). This, as opposed to forking out 60K in borrowed money as a 22 year old, to take a job making substandard wages because "Don't you know how much ass I'll get? Like, crazy 'boy-band ass'!!"


Matt13C said:
Thats for certain! After making a livable wage, it would be very tough to go back to making what I did in high school.

I dont think the industry will lose career changers altogether though, it wont lose me anyway. I will however, use my current situation to the best of my ability, to make the switch on my own terms.
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I'm with ya on that Matt. :beer:
 
FlybyLaw said:
Rome wasen't built in a day.. And that is what most pilot's think they deserve when they get the airline job. We all start at the bottom. When your a doctor you work 36 hrs straight making 36-45 a year for 3 years or more. Lawyers work 70-90 hrs a week for 50-70 for some years. And us pilots make 20-22 to start.
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The only problem here, is that flight instructing would be more akin the the medical resident or the law clerk. Residents and clerks pay their dues and then are treated as professional. If flying right seat is paying your dues, then what is instructing or banner towing, freight, traffic watch or surveying?

Also, a doctor or a lawyer will only go through their apprentice phase just once. Once they prove their worth, they can take their knowledge and demand a salary commensurate with their experience. A pilot will go through it any time they change airlines, either by choice or by furlough. Experience means nothing, their will always be dues to be paid.
 
Uhh, yeah, my plan is to get a PHD and teach at a College, then fly freight, or work for a local charter company as a "fun" job, or some slow corporate gig since the places I'd really like to be aren't going to be hiring for the extended future.
 
Ive been instructing the past year at one of the bigger "schools' doing Chinese contracts. Its been challenging and the students are pretty good but management has gone full retard. Its sucked the life out of me and everyone else here. Its a shame too....we have alot of people here who have gone beyond CFI and really want to be educators as well as instructors..something we're no longer allowed to do.
If there was something on the horizon to continue the struggle for it might be different but it feels like staying here is akin to being trapped inside a whirlpool slowly being drawn into the center where people wind up bitter and despise aviation. I really don't want that to happen but theres not much to move forward too at the moment. I think I'd be better off taking a different tack for a while, staying connected through local stuff and parttime instructing, maybe CAP or any other way to be involved without making it my full time ( and I mean WAY more that full time ) life. When the tides turn I'll be fresh and excited and ready to jump back and swim with the sharks.
 
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