Getting into Warbird flying?

[Tld]

Money. That's how you get into it.

Money and Luck.

Honestly, make friends with warbirders. In my experience, they have been the most welcoming group of people around. If you really want to get into it though, get yourself the plane you want and go from there. (even if you have to rebuild it from the ground, up)

 

[kellwolf]

There are flight school's that will rent you a Texan, my work for instance. Not sure if there are any where you live. There are also a bunch of buy in programs that are like selective flight clubs for warbirds. One Texan in the area has a 1000 dollar buy in, then hourly dues and annual dues, and basically you are part owner of a T-6.

I know there's a place in ISM that specializes in training guys that are looking to buy T-6s. You can do the hour long "fun ride," the short course or the long course which is designed for the insurance companies. It ain't cheap, though.

 

[fholbert]

Expect to work with a lot of deluded uber-type-A personalities that think they're God's gift to aviation and women. At least that has been my experience in 2 jobs working for people who were really into the warbird thing.

My friend knows Bob Hoover well. I was trying to get him invited to a pilot type party. My friend said; "If you want someone talk about Bob Hoover all night, talk to Bob Hoover."

 

[Hacker15e]

When trying to get checked out in a F8F Bearcat, F-16 time is nowhere near as valuable as Ag-cat and T-6 time. However, the "cool" factor of being buddy with a fighter pilot gets their foot in the door with the owners.

Well, sort of yes and sort of no.

Remember that there are two separate facets of being a good pilot; there is the "technical" skill of moving your hands and feet to pilot the aircraft, and then there is the more ethereal "airmanship" skill, which consists of your decisionmaking, judgment, experience, situational awareness, etc, as a pilot.

The technical skill is really not as important as the airmanship skill. The technical skill changes from aircraft to aircraft, and is actually relatively easily learned and perfected. Witness that new students are taught to solo a GA aircraft in something like 10 hours, but wait 4 times that amount to have experienced enough as an aviator to actually be licensed. Every time a pilot switches to a different type of aircraft, he needs to re-learn that technical skill, and it is usually mastered to a safe level in a short period.

It is the airmanship skill that takes experience to develop and refine. This is the precise reason that flight hours are yardstick by which pilots are measured. It can't be learned overnight -- judgment requires experience, which takes time.

You are correct that flying a jet has little relation to flying a big piston taildragger. Nearly everything about the mechanical management and operation of the engine is a different thought process. Obviously the taking off, landing, and taxiing is a completely different beast. The "muscle memory" required to those tasks just doesn't exist in a current military fighter pilot.

When former military guys -- especially ex-fighter pilots -- are brought in to fly WWII iron, it is because owners want that airmanship. It is NOT just because they are fun to be around in the bar and tell crazy stories. Fighter guys bring thousands of hours of high performance flying that looks and smells a lot like what warbirds do; formation, low, fast, etc. Having operated in that environment means that after they learn the technical skills required (ergo, that T-6 time), they have valuable airmanship to operate and protect that very valuable warbird in an environment that can become "high performance" in the blink of an eye.

 

[Inverted]

I'd like to come over there after fire season and fly...I live near AUN and often have flown into LVK to do concerts in San Ramon...

Sure come by!!

 

[Inverted]

I agree with Hacker. The general operations of these warbirds are to bring them to fly in's, airshows etc. If you want to fly in shows you need a FAST card to fly formation with other warbirds at shows.

Even just going single ship, doing low approaches and being comfortable maneuvering at high speeds and to the deck takes a lot to get used to.

As far as Pawnee time I am sure thats a big help. I only say Citabria time because that is what I have heard from several sources from different parts of the country.

Where are you located Inverted25? I honestly think the best bet is to find a program you can buy into, find out what the requirements are as far as hours go. Then just stick to them like a fly, when they have meetings or anything, its probably good to listen in and pick info from the experienced pilots heads. Most of these buy in clubs are pretty political. You have to put the smile on the face and make sure everyone likes you, once they do and you get in thats when you need to show that you can operate that aircraft safely.

 

[kellwolf]

Looked into the CAF in my area. All they have is a Hawker Sea Fury, which would be COOL to fly, but realistically, I'd probably never see any stick time.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

My best friend is the Operations Manager for the Trojan Horseman flight demonstration team.. they fly the T-28. She is also heavily involved with the Warbirds Society. I've gotten the opportunity to meet a lot of the owners and warbird people. I can tell you that trying to get warbird time without being an owner, save rentable T-6's, is something not worth pursuing with any ferocious intent. 99.9% of warbird pilots own the aircraft they fly. In the case of two pilot aircraft such as the Mitchel it's usually their best friend flying in the right seat. A few lucky people get some stick time by being involved in the local group or aircraft support team for many many years. But these folks almost never set out to have that happen. They just got into the seat by constant proxy and accumulated trust.

If you want this, you just have to sit back and let it happen on its own. Getting an owner to let you take the controls is a lot like getting a corporate job right now, it's just who you know and being in the right place in the right time. There is no real process when it comes to getting warbird time. So just find a club or a local W/B group and get involved for the love of just being around the aircraft and to help keep them flying. Don't do it just to get stick time as short of buying one yourself, it may never happen. That's what you have to accept about warbirds.

 

[Sol Rosenburg]

Expect to work with a lot of deluded uber-type-A personalities that think they're God's gift to aviation and women. At least that has been my experience in 2 jobs working for people who were really into the warbird thing.

This year I was based where a Mustang was and another base with a TBM Avenger (wow! what a plane) both of which the respective pilots seemed to be the kind that go to the grocery store in a full flight suit and oxygen mask, read: riddlethirst.

Millionaire mustang pilot was great. After starting up he subsequently broke around a half dozen fars within his first ten minutes of flight but those types typically do what they want when they want and I'd assume they'd treat employed pilots in the same manner working at their whim and playbook. I don't discount the millionaire aviation enthusiast completely though since without them most of the vintage birds would all be rotting in a field somewhere in Iowa as the state's biggest birdhouse.

 

[Hacker15e]

the respective pilots seemed to be the kind that go to the grocery store in a full flight suit and oxygen mask, read: riddlethirst.

Millionaire mustang pilot was great. After starting up he subsequently broke around a half dozen fars within his first ten minutes of flight but those types typically do what they want when they want

This is not *typical* of your average warbird owner/pilot, but unfortunately I've found that this attitude occurs statistically more frequently in the warbird community than in other places in aviation.

As I said earlier, there are a good number of owners who are living out Walter Mitty fantasies by owning and operating military aircraft. You'd be surprised how many warbird operators fancy themselves as "fighter pilots" because they happen to have stick time in a Mustang, Corsair, Spit, etc. Of course, piloting an aircraft that was once a fighter doesn't make you anything even close to a "fighter pilot", but the ego stroking they are able to get out of believing themselves to have such a title is immense. They mistakenly believe that being a "fighter pilot" means that you don't follow the rules, that you showboat whenever possible, etc, and that you have to tell everyone in the room that you are one. The fact that they think this (and ignore the other important aspects of fighter pilot-ism like flight discipline, controlled aggression, being analytical vs visceral, etc) means that they clearly *arent* actually fighter pilots.

The personalities that are most distressing are the successful business men who are used to operating in an environment where they are usually in charge and there is nobody telling them 'no' or critiquing their performance. Some of them carry that attitude and personality with them into the cockpit of their warbird, and that is an especially dangerous mix. High performance flying has such a small margin for error, that pilots must have honest (and sometimes very critical) feedback in order to improve performance. Some of these power-players just can't handle (or don't want to listen to) someone else pointing out the mistakes they made in flight. The easiest way to avoid having to sit through that is to just not debrief at all, or just ignore when criticism is being pointed your way. Either way, not a healthy or professional attitude.

The biggest two problems I see in the community is a lack of common training and standards, and the personality dynamic means that honest feedback either isn't welcomed or is ignored. With respect to training, the FAST organization has made great strides toward bringing common training and standards to airshow flying, but there is still a long way to go IMHO (from the perspective of a military guy, at least). The lack of honest feedback and debrief etiquette results from the fact that many pilots just don't want to be criticized, and aren't interested in the time and effort required to debrief sorties and learn from the mistakes made -- many just want to show up with their toys and have fun.

All that being said, there are many honest, safe, and good people who own and operate warbirds. For me, the greatest aspect of being involved in the community is the people -- the good far outweigh the bad from my perspective. Amongst the community people know who the 'good' pilots and 'bad' pilots are. Usually the 'bad' ones aren't asked back to airshows, aren't made part of formations, etc.

 

[MikeD]

This is not *typical* of your average warbird owner/pilot, but unfortunately I've found that this attitude occurs statistically more frequently in the warbird community than in other places in aviation.

As I said earlier, there are a good number of owners who are living out Walter Mitty fantasies by owning and operating military aircraft. You'd be surprised how many warbird operators fancy themselves as "fighter pilots" because they happen to have stick time in a Mustang, Corsair, Spit, etc. Of course, piloting an aircraft that was once a fighter doesn't make you anything even close to a "fighter pilot", but the ego stroking they are able to get out of believing themselves to have such a title is immense. They mistakenly believe that being a "fighter pilot" means that you don't follow the rules, that you showboat whenever possible, etc, and that you have to tell everyone in the room that you are one. The fact that they think this (and ignore the other important aspects of fighter pilot-ism like flight discipline, controlled aggression, being analytical vs visceral, etc) means that they clearly *arent* actually fighter pilots.

The personalities that are most distressing are the successful business men who are used to operating in an environment where they are usually in charge and there is nobody telling them 'no' or critiquing their performance. Some of them carry that attitude and personality with them into the cockpit of their warbird, and that is an especially dangerous mix. High performance flying has such a small margin for error, that pilots must have honest (and sometimes very critical) feedback in order to improve performance. Some of these power-players just can't handle (or don't want to listen to) someone else pointing out the mistakes they made in flight. The easiest way to avoid having to sit through that is to just not debrief at all, or just ignore when criticism is being pointed your way. Either way, not a healthy or professional attitude.

The biggest two problems I see in the community is a lack of common training and standards, and the personality dynamic means that honest feedback either isn't welcomed or is ignored. With respect to training, the FAST organization has made great strides toward bringing common training and standards to airshow flying, but there is still a long way to go IMHO (from the perspective of a military guy, at least). The lack of honest feedback and debrief etiquette results from the fact that many pilots just don't want to be criticized, and aren't interested in the time and effort required to debrief sorties and learn from the mistakes made -- many just want to show up with their toys and have fun.

.

What you mention above is one of the contributing factors IMHO that lead to a number of the accidents of guys that have the money to have a warbird; but lack the airmanship, training, SA, experience, or any combination thereof. And another rare, can't-be-replaced warbird gets destroyed, oftentimes along with the owner.

 

[Boris Badenov]

In my very, very limited experience, once you get around very cool airplanes that don't have a military data plate, egos get way less important and people get much, much cooler. With no disrespect intended to actual military pilots, the guys who are extending their junk by going out and winning world war II again are generally the sort of guys real tough guys (of which I'm not one, but I know a few) used to stuff in to lockers.

If you want to meet some interesting people doing crazy things with airplanes, go to your local EAA chapter and Get Involved. Nostalgia is fine, but I'm not really interested in spending untold hours stroking some investment banker's vastly overgrown ego so I might get a chance to touch "his stick".

 

[RICHARD5]

Hacker, what you said is spot on. That is why I no longer fly formation with certain pilots even though they have thousands of hours in many types of aircraft and have flown combat missions. That point about not willing to accept criticism or available to debrief is very much true.

 

[Inverted25]

99.9% of warbird pilots own the aircraft they fly

Is that a true stat? Because the three guys I have ment so far who fly them on the circuit for a living are strictly pilots and not owners. Seems weird to me that I would run into the entire .01% without meeting the ther 99.9%. Not trying to start a fight just curious as to where that number came from.

 

[bunk22]

At an airshow several years ago, I ran into that ego/big headed personality with a pilot who flew the old T-6's and a few other warbirds. For whatever reason, he felt it necessary to wander up to my plane and give me his resume and tell me story after story. He was a retired Navy Chief who worked his way into warbird flying. I guess because I was one of the few Navy pilots at the airshow, he wanted to show-off. I was the wrong person to do it to as I lack a filter when annoyed....well, most of the time actually. I gave him a call sign though....A$$ Jockey.

It would be sweet to fly old warbirds though. I grew up near Chino and many rich folks had personal warbirds, on top of the Chino Musuem's flying warbirds. Got to sit in a few planes, like the P-51 and B-25. Very nice

 

[tprops4me]

In my very, very limited experience, once you get around very cool airplanes that don't have a military data plate, egos get way less important and people get much, much cooler. With no disrespect intended to actual military pilots, the guys who are extending their junk by going out and winning world war II again are generally the sort of guys real tough guys (of which I'm not one, but I know a few) used to stuff in to lockers.

If you want to meet some interesting people doing crazy things with airplanes, go to your local EAA chapter and Get Involved. Nostalgia is fine, but I'm not really interested in spending untold hours stroking some investment banker's vastly overgrown ego so I might get a chance to touch "his stick".

I think that is the best way I have ever heard it said.

 

[XLR99]

What you mention above is one of the contributing factors IMHO that lead to a number of the accidents of guys that have the money to have a warbird; but lack the airmanship, training, SA, experience, or any combination thereof. And another rare, can't-be-replaced warbird gets destroyed, oftentimes along with the owner.

Sounds like a supersize version of many non-warbird pilots. Just scale up the ego, net worth, size and cost of the airplane to suit.

 

[Low&Slow]

Is that a true stat? Because the three guys I have ment so far who fly them on the circuit for a living are strictly pilots and not owners. Seems weird to me that I would run into the entire .01% without meeting the ther 99.9%. Not trying to start a fight just curious as to where that number came from.

84.372519866732158% of all statistics are made up.

 

[Callador]

I don't know much about getting P51 time etc... but some people mentioned having T6 time helped. I do work with a guy who used to do the airshow circuit giving T6 rides. They would do basic acro and some dog fighting stuff (if two friends both got rides). He didn't have any previous T6 time before starting that, but he did have a lot of Pitts time and did acro for fun beforehand. Like I said, I don't know much about this topic, but I thought I would throw the T6 stuff out there.

Good luck!

 

[WacoFan]

There are some warbird guys that take it waaay too seriously. The CAF (I refuse to call it the "commemerative air force") gives everyone the title "Colonel". Now...when the CAF started back in Texas a long time ago I think they all pooled their money on a P-51 and gave themselves the title "Colonel" as a joke. I think we've all seen too many of these people that take that title seriously now...even if they are flying an L-4 (an olive drab J-3 Cub). For some reason OD paint and invasion stripes turn the L-4 into some kind of exotic and mysterious "Warbird". Now, my opinion is that these kinds of people will be dicks regardless (opps...this is JC...I mean irregardless). The P-51, to the Stinson V-77, to the L-4...there are some pilots that are ok people...and some that are dicks.