Getting IFR current, in VFR, with a hood on, flying solo, in class B?

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Sir, it wasn't until your 7th post, (after people gave you a smack down), that you changed your question. At first it was ALL about the need for a safety pilot. Don't pee on my leg then tell me it's raining.

Personally, I don't think this guy is an instructor at all.
 
z987k said:
Well that seems a bit unnecessary.

But to be honest your question - "if ATC is responsible, then why is the pilot responsible too?"
Is an absolutely ridiculous one for anyone who has achieved even a ppl. So regardless, if it's under the hood solo or why am I responsible, both questions are something you should just know out of common sense. Like no reg even required, if anything out of pure self preservation.
I think the backlash is really that people are floored someone with 5000 hours is asking either question.
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ONCE AGAIN....THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS THE LIMIT OF ATCS RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IN CLASS B? ARE THE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE? OR IS IT A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY? IF ITS A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY THEN CLASS B SHOULD SAY ATC WILL PROVIDE ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR VFR/VFR TRAFFIC.
When I hear responsible I think that that person has final responsibility, just has much as you have the responsibility to put forth a reasonable reply, which I dont see coming. Once again I KNOW MY QUESTION ABOUT WEARING A HOOD SOLO DOESNT FACTOR IN COMMON SENSE, I just wanted to know extent of ATCs responsibility. And you keep pointing out how many hours I have, yes 5000, but with all the experience combined you guys have you still can define ATCs responsibility in class B, which makes me think the same about you, but I understand the grey area here which many of you dont. So once you get a enough experience and can think beyond the rote level of learning please get back to me with an answer
 
Ash Williams said:
Sir, it wasn't until your 7th post, (after people gave you a smack down), that you changed your question. At first it was ALL about the need for a safety pilot. Don't pee on my leg then tell me it's raining.

Personally, I don't think this guy is an instructor at all.
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No, I didnt change the question, I redefined it to target my underlying intention behind the question which many of you were unable to see.
 
You realize you keep changing your question when we point out the ridiculousness of it right? You realize we can read previous posts? I even quoted your question word for word. "if ATC is responsible, then why is the pilot responsible too?"
It was not "WHAT IS THE LIMIT OF ATCS RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IN CLASS B? ARE THE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE?"

Even still, I can't imagine anyone thinking they are not responsible to see and avoid any time they are not IMC. That is clearly laid out and taught day 1.

You do realize there are conditions that you can be within class B and not talking to ATC right? Or you could be at the floor, say 2000ft and the other guy is at 1990ft and are not participating? Or some guy who only ever flies in the sticks and hasn't had a BFR in 10 years, never talks to anyone on the radio decides to bust the bravo that day, so again an nonparticipating airplane.
 
One of the reasons for what we now call bravo airspace: PSA flight 182 over San Diego. Like a real instructor, I'm gonna tell you to look it up. I'll also tell you to look up the definition of "Pilot in command." (They blamed the pilots and the controller btw)
 
z987k said:
You realize you keep changing your question when we point out the ridiculousness of it right? You realize we can read previous posts? I even quoted your question word for word. "if ATC is responsible, then why is the pilot responsible too?"
It was not "WHAT IS THE LIMIT OF ATCS RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IN CLASS B? ARE THE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE?"

Even still, I can't imagine anyone thinking they are not responsible to see and avoid any time they are not IMC. That is clearly laid out and taught day 1.

You do realize there are conditions that you can be within class B and not talking to ATC right? Or you could be at the floor, say 2000ft and the other guy is at 1990ft and are not participating?
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THE GOOD
There it is! Some helpful insight to the post. I wasnt considering being on the edge of the airspace as you mentioned. But if they hit you it would be their fault considering they were not cleared into B.
THE BAD
Yes I redefined the question, once a realized that was a horrible example of what I was looking for, regardless its still targets the responsibility in class B.
ONCE AGAIN....THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS THE LIMIT OF ATCS RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IN CLASS B? ARE THE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE? OR IS IT A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY? IF ITS A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY THEN CLASS B SHOULD SAY ATC WILL PROVIDE ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR VFR/VFR TRAFFIC. Once again I KNOW MY QUESTION ABOUT WEARING A HOOD SOLO DOESNT FACTOR IN COMMON SENSE, I just wanted to know extent of ATCs responsibility.
 
So, now that you've had a few minutes to look that stuff up.... Who do you think has the final responsibility for the safety of the flight?
 
Ash Williams said:
One of the reasons for what we now call bravo airspace: PSA flight 182 over San Diego. Like a real instructor, I'm gonna tell you to look it up. I'll also tell you to look up the definition of "Pilot in command." (They blamed the pilots and the controller btw)
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Everything I've ever known says the pilot is responsible, and when in class B the controller is responsible. So both are responsible Im assuming
 
Ash Williams said:
So, now that you've had a few minutes to look that stuff up.... Who do you think has the final responsibility for the safety of the flight?
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I really dont need your condescending remarks. Please stick to the question so we can come to a conclusion.
Example, as PIC I must make sure my student and I have enough fuel for our flight. I make sure they check (giving them responsibility), but I also must make sure and check myself because I have full responsibility if we run out. Both have responsibility, but only one is responsible. In class B I read "ATC is responsible for separation" and everywhere I read "the pilot is responsible for separation." DO YOU SEE THE POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE?
 
You don't need OUR condescending remarks? That's funny because in this one post, you called us "idiots" and "retards."

Caelum Deus said:
Let me make this all very clear to you *ing idiots because either your childish impulsivity cant resist saying "I cant believe you're a CFI" from one element of what I said, or you have actually read through this entire thread and still cant realize what I'm asking.
In class B ATC is ultimately responsible for VFR/VFR separation, if so why mention it if they are not solely responsible? That was all. And yes I do know about all the regulations that involve the requirements of needing a safety pilot, and yes I do know all about the regulations that involve the see and avoid concept. The question that I originally asked was an example on the extreme side of what ATCs responsibilities/limitations are. The poster who mentioned that the rules overlap and that depending on the situation both the pilot and controller are responsible for traffic separation answered my question. But all this non sense has continued due to the fact that my hypothetical/extreme/of-course-no one-would-actually-do-that example has side tracked many of you from the real point. The question was used as an attention getter and was used to point out a situation which would be used to draw a line between a pilots and a controllers responsibility in class B. Like I've said before, the basis of what I was asking was "if ATC is responsible, then why is the pilot responsible too?" I have no idea why you guys are having a hard time with this.
So for all of you who have helped to answer this question, thanks, and to those who have said "how do you not know the answer, you should give up your certs, ect" you should be less contempt prior to your investigation and put forth something that can be actually helpful instead of running around like a bunch of retards.
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Ash Williams said:
You don't need OUR condescending remarks? That's funny because in this one post, you called us "idiots" and "retards."
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Yes your very observant. I have continually used condescending remarks on a variety of posts, since it feels like Im talking to idiots and retards. Thanks for stating the obvious, heres your goal star, now get out there and go play with your new Christmas toys little buddy
 
Ash Williams said:
This. Epic Christmas thread!

Seriously, all of your answers can be found in previous posts.

Merry Christmas!
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Yes like I've mentioned over and over. ITS A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY, at least that has been then general consensus. I have no further questions, Im merely here to point out the absurdity of a lot of the comments posted by you all.
 
Caelum Deus said:
THE GOOD
There it is! Some helpful insight to the post. I wasnt considering being on the edge of the airspace as you mentioned. But if they hit you it would be their fault considering they were not cleared into B.
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Here's the thing. If you hit someone/thing it doesn't matter whose fault it is or who was responsible for separating or any of that, because in all likelihood you are now dead. So at the end of the day, only YOU as the, or one of the pilots of an airplane are responsible for everything, including traffic separation. The term final authority comes to mind. Also the phrase "you don't want to be dead right".

To go off on another tangent this is also why situation awareness is soooo important. Just flying the airplane is not enough. Especially in a busy traffic environment you also need a picture of everything going on in your head. Both controllers and pilots make mistakes. Even in IMC you have some responsibility for separation, in that you have an idea of what is going on. If a controller clears an airplane for the ILS and then clears you for the ILS a few seconds later and you're only .5 miles from the FAF something is wrong, and while it's the controller's mistake, if you end up dead it doesn't really matter whose fault it was. Or terrain and IMC, a really good example of that is the ACE Dillingham 1900 crash last year about this time. The controller was likely at fault there, but hey the airplane was IMC and terrain separation(via altitudes given) is the responsibility of the controller right? Well, yes but they're still dead.
How about ATC is being nice and gives you a vector 200nm, "proceed direct when able" to your destination while IFR. You lose coms after a bit because it's an area of shoddy reception. Problem is the winds aloft are a lot different than that vector accounted for, say 50knots in the wrong direction, now you're going to be severely off course while having no coms for 20 mins and possibly below terrain in the new area you're flying through. It's your responsibility to correct that vector in order to not hit terrain.

I guess the point is, if you rely soley on ATC for anything, you're gonna have a bad time. Everything from navigation, terrain and traffic separation... EVERYTHING is at the very least jointly responsible if nothing else because it's your ass in the seat.
 
Caelum Deus said:
Yes like I've mentioned over and over. ITS A JOINT RESPONSIBILITY, at least that has been then general consensus. I have no further questions, Im merely here to point out the absurdity of a lot of the comments posted by you all.
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Hey! Looks like we might be getting somewhere. I'm gonna ask you ONE more question just to make sure that learning has taken place-->

Ready...?

Who has the final authority for the safety of flight?
 
z987k said:
Here's the thing. If you hit someone/thing it doesn't matter whose fault it is or who was responsible for separating or any of that, because in all likelihood you are now dead. So at the end of the day, only YOU as the, or one of the pilots of an airplane are responsible for everything, including traffic separation. The term final authority comes to mind. Also the phrase "you don't want to be dead right".

To go off on another tangent this is also why situation awareness is soooo important. Just flying the airplane is not enough. Especially in a busy traffic environment you also need a picture of everything going on in your head. Both controllers and pilots make mistakes. Even in IMC you have some responsibility for separation, in that you have an idea of what is going on. If a controller clears an airplane for the ILS and then clears you for the ILS a few seconds later and you're only .5 miles from the FAF something is wrong, and while it's the controller's mistake, if you end up dead it doesn't really matter whose fault it was. Or terrain and IMC, a really good example of that is the ACE Dillingham 1900 crash last year about this time. The controller was likely at fault there, but hey the airplane was IMC and terrain separation(via altitudes given) is the responsibility of the controller right? Well, yes but they're still dead.
How about ATC is being nice and gives you a vector 200nm, "proceed direct when able" to your destination while IFR. You lose coms after a bit because it's an area of shoddy reception. Problem is the winds aloft are a lot different than that vector accounted for, say 50knots in the wrong direction, now you're going to be severely off course while having no coms for 20 mins and possibly below terrain in the new area you're flying through. It's your responsibility to correct that vector in order to not hit terrain.

I guess the point is, if you rely soley on ATC for anything, you're gonna have a bad time. Everything from navigation, terrain and traffic separation... EVERYTHING is at the very least jointly responsible if nothing else because it's your ass in the seat.
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I AGREE 100%! I have never thought anything other than what you mentioned. But again why even mention anything about ATC being responsible in class B? This is the whole point. When Im flying I always double check ATCs work, I never rely solely on ATC for the safety of the flight, but for discussion I wanted to know why the FAA says ATC is responsible in class B, even though they are not completely responsible?
 
Ash Williams said:
Hey! Looks like we might be getting somewhere. I'm gonna ask you ONE more question just to make sure that learning has taken place-->

Ready...?

Who has the final authority for the safety of flight?
Click to expand...
Seriously though, I really would like to know how old you are. I really get the impression, especially after this thread, that Im having a pilot discussion with a bunch of simulator pilots who are probably under 18 whenever I have a discussion on JC
 
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