Getting IFR Clearance In the Air (ATC not happy)

T

turbojet28

Well-Known Member
I fly 121 and this morning we departed a non-towered airport on a short flight into the hub. No direct comm was available to the center, and we couldn't raise anyone on the GCO at the airport. It was very nice WX so we decided to depart VFR. We also had a NOTAM that stated VFR departures were allowed as long as we follow the procedures listed in our FOM (which we also did). We got our IFR passing about 6000, probably no more than 10 miles from the departure field. We were in class E airspace squawking 1200, then we were cleared as filed and told to maintain __ thousand and on our way - controller never said anything. Later this afternoon we get a phone call from our company saying they had a complaint from ATC about us departing VFR a getting a clearance in the air. After thinking about it and doing some reading in our FOM, I still believe we performed a perfectly acceptable departure. It has been a while since I have done it this way, but I have never received a complaint. Do I have something to worry about? I realize that in consideration to ATC, we should have just gotten the clearance on the ground from FSS over the phone, regardless of what the company allows us to do. I am trying to learn from the experience, but now I'm a bit worried because we got a complaint. I do apologize to any ATCers here because I guess I didn't realize it was a big headache (for those of us who don't operate out of non-towered fields as often).
 
Unless you're in a sector that is crazy busy, in which case it is inconvenient, not wrong. As long as your ops specs and sop's allow for VFR, you're fine.

I much much prefer to pick it up airborne than wait 30 mins on the ground for lockheed martin to pull their head out of their ass and read me my clearance. Even if I have a working RCO, I'd rather depart VFR if possible. It's a lot shorter to. XXX squawk ****..... radar contact, cleared to XYZ as filed, maintain X thousand. Done. I do it every day, part 135.

Curious as to that NOTAM though.... you were at untowered airport than you normally can not depart vfr from? I've never seen a NOTAM say anything like that.
 
Well it is a company-specific NOTAM, and I don't know why it is there to be honest. I have never seen that even at the other uncontrolled fields we operate at. It seemed to us that especially since the NOTAM was there, regardless of the reason, that crews do it a lot. I guess not. Just for clarity, this is a new station for us and neither the captain or I had been there before. Just another good reminder to stay sharp and that even though things are allowed, it still may be best to find a better way.
 
I know we want you to call on the ground for your clearance.
During the day we are to busy to read a full route clearance.
If it is early in the morning or late at night it is fine, but not during busy times.
 
Guess it depends on location/time situation. Most of our busy satellites have GCO's and for the ones that don't we have a 1-866# direct to our clearance delivery. You depart VFR onto my frequency looking to pick up an IFR, you better hope I am not busy. If I am, you are number last in priorities right after everyone who checks in between now and when I get your clearance ready.

In this case, it sounds like in your scenario you tried the other methods and with the NOTAM situation it means that this is not abnormal where this happened. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with Lockheed.

As to the complaint after the fact I have no idea what is up with that, and don't have a clue what purpose complaining afterwards would serve. As I stated before I prefer to let my complaints known subtly at call up.
 
As one of the controllers mentioned, if everyone who wanted to depart from a field with no radio comms with center waited for Lockheed to give them a clearance, the national airspace system would grind to a halt right quick. It regularly takes me 15-20 minutes to get an actual clearance from the time I first talk to FSS. It's gotten to the point that I call from the back of the ambulance on the way to the field, knowing that by the time I get a void time we'll be loading the patient. Naturally I only do this when it's IFR...if it's VFR I inevitably depart VFR and maintain it until the controllers (who I think it's worth remembering are totally distinct from the Three Stooges FSS system) can get around to getting me a clearance. In short, you done good.
 
"Time now 15:34 and 3/4"
"TIme now 15:34 and 3/4"
"roger, now time is 15:35 and 1/4"
"you DO realize we could do this ALL day, right?"
 
I'm with everyone else. Who cares if ATC gets pissed because you are doing what you are allowed to do. I work with plenty of lazy controllers that do not want to do more work than they have to. But, that doesn't make it right. I would be more than happy to give you an IFR clearance after you departed VFR. But, it will only be done when I can get to it (after I've handled all the IFR traffic I'm already talking to).
 
I departed 3 times last week VFR and picked up my IFR in the air. We are part 121 too. It is legal, both through the FARs and through the company's FOM. Plus, it seemed the clearance is usually really easy unless they actually have to change the entire routing.

Since they called and complained (really can't believe the lazy sob called the company) I would go ahead and fill out an ASAP. Just state that you did everything write per the FARs and FOM, but they still called an complained. Just a CYA thing. Then depending on my mood I would call the chief pilot and discuss it with him, just to get more information about what happened. I would also consider calling the ARTCC and asking to speak to their supervisor/manager and asking them what is wrong with what you did. Especially, considering it's 100% legal. Again, that's depending on the mood you're in.
 
Boris Badenov said:
As one of the controllers mentioned, if everyone who wanted to depart from a field with no radio comms with center waited for Lockheed to give them a clearance, the national airspace system would grind to a halt right quick. It regularly takes me 15-20 minutes to get an actual clearance from the time I first talk to FSS. It's gotten to the point that I call from the back of the ambulance on the way to the field, knowing that by the time I get a void time we'll be loading the patient. Naturally I only do this when it's IFR...if it's VFR I inevitably depart VFR and maintain it until the controllers (who I think it's worth remembering are totally distinct from the Three Stooges FSS system) can get around to getting me a clearance. In short, you done good.
Click to expand...

I used to have to call in to get a clearance often at an airport in NM. I agree Lochkeed takes some time. I asked center if there was a better way to get it and ABQ center gave me a direct number to ABQ FSS to pick it up and things worked much better.

Moral of the story, ask on the way in for the best way to get a clearance for the departure.
 
They are on the ground because of us not the other way around!

That was the adage of a J/O I used to fly with. Anyway, the ASAP is probably not a bad idea although I've done the same thing 121 as have most others and I'm sure it will turn out to be nothing.
 
you know it could have been a supervisor that reported it and not the controller, lots of VIGAINAs in FFA management.
 
queeno said:
you know it could have been a supervisor that reported it and not the controller, lots of VIGAINAs in FFA management.
Click to expand...
I honestly wonder how that conversation went. "airline XX CP, one of your aircraft took off and conducted a flight in accordance with the FARs and did everything per the FOM/SOP's. I'm upset!"
 
Remember, when looking at being legal or not one must look at 121 in addition to 91. What was the weather at your destination (121.611)? Did you meet the communication requriements under 121? Was there a ground stop in effect at your destination? (I've seen pilots try to get cute and depart VFR to get around ground stops). What do your OPSPECs say about departing VFR from that airport?
 
Thanks for the replies. As for 121.611, I am not sure how to interpret that because it is about dispatching and releasing for a VFR flight under part 121. We were dispatched/released IFR and then in our company's FOM there is a provision for departing VFR.The provision states it is allowed if you maintain VFR cloud clearances, at least 1000' AGL, and don't proceed further than 50 NM from the departure airport before getting your IFR clearance.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything else yet, and honestly I don't even know if I will. When the ACP called and after we told him our side of the story he didn't seem to think we had done anything incorrectly.
 
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