Gates to cut F-22

Probably the fact that he's in the infantry and IS that dude on the ground that would much prefer the armor over a stealth fighter jet.

Further, what in the world does it matter how many of these things you have if you can't see them to shoot them down? I mean cool, the Soviets built some awesome weapons...but the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. The Chinese aren't exactly known for their R&D (but they're great at ripping people off) and there's no other nation on earth that could even come close to starting a real fight with us as far as air combat is concerned.

I know, you guys want the best piece of machinery possible. You have it, and unless you've got access to classified information that I don't, that says that China has built a clone of the F-22 and has in fact found a way to shoot the thing down, then why do we need thousands of the things? There's a point where being over prepared will bankrupt the country, and then what are these things going to do?

I mean can't this thing track and engage multiple targets at the same time? I.E. 5 Flankers vs. 1 F-22 results in 5 destroyed Flankers? Wasn't that part of the mission statement of this aircraft?

As much as I'd love to fly the F-22, we don't need more fighters right now, close air support stuff seems to be were the war is at, Harriers, helicopters and JDAMs (the realm of the F-15) seems to be the future. There is noone who can touch us in the air right now anyway...at all. Hell, the F-15 has never been shot down. Ever! Keep the thing upgraded with new motors, and better avionics and the stealth weapons bay they're going to put on it (the F-15SE) but we're broke as a country right now, and if you can trim several billion off of a fighter plane project then do it. We're not going to be any less safe without it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Look, the B-52 is practically an anachronism, but they keep the things running and working, and nothing works better to deliver large quantities of bombs on target.
 
Well, that's just it. You say that number is "more than enough"...based on what? What scenario?

It's fine to look at the F-22's capabilities mano-e-mano against every other threat in the world, but that is not the question posed when considering the NUMBER of aircraft to be built.

How many aircraft do you think are required to fill the air superiority role both over North America and in any deployed location in the world?

Hey Hacker, that's exactly the same argument against the F-22, but in reverse. If the aircraft is so expensive that we can only afford 187 (or 200, or even 250), but the enemy is going to field 20,000 MiG 21's, maybe we should be buying a cheaper plane and fielding more. It doesn't make sense to base our defense decisions on only technology. They need to be based on capability, and a high technology system grants some capabilities at the expense of others (like the total number fielded).



Hacker15e said:
I think your idea that 187 is "enough" isn't really based on anything.

I think that 187 is not enough by a wide margin.

But that's not really based on anything, either. If we move money out of the -22 program and into the -35 than maybe we can field more F-35's and get an overall better force out of it.

Or maybe we funnel the money into ground troops and stealthy UAV's, and our increased capability in those areas make up for the difference. There are going to be trade off's no matter what way we slice it. Should we buy 6000 F-22's to drive the price down, but then get rid of the Army and the Marine corps entirely?

Or should we take money out of other areas of the budget, say education for example, and plus up the military budget so that we get all of the military projects at high levels? Doing that might be great for military security and power, but what happens 10 or 20 years down the road when the literacy and overall education decline to the point where we can't design the NEXT big sexy (the F-69, or something)? It's all about trade-offs, and the military isn't the only concern. And even within the military, equipment isn't the only priority.
 
Probably the fact that he's in the infantry and IS that dude on the ground that would much prefer the armor over a stealth fighter jet.

So, being a ground pounder makes one qualified to say, "The USAF can annihilate any enemy in the air (or in the ground) as it is right now."

I'm glad he's so confident...because I'm not.

Lots of people make statements about how capable our airpower is based on...I don't know, probably what they see on the Discovery channel. It's an interesting bit of self-promotion for the USAF to say things like "the most capable air force in the world", but the reality is a little different.

there's no other nation on earth that could even come close to starting a real fight with us as far as air combat is concerned.

Again, what is such a statement based on? Unless you are prepared to discuss specific aircraft and missile capabilities, or what types of tactics those countries are using, or how those tactics rack up against what the US is currently using...well, then, it's all pretty much just intellectual masturbation.

There are a half dozen or more countries who could currently give the USAF a big black eye based on their technology alone. There are still more with "second rate" equipment that could get in enough lucky punches to make it hurt for America.

Ultimately, US military power would probably win...but at what cost?

I mean can't this thing track and engage multiple targets at the same time? I.E. 5 Flankers vs. 1 F-22 results in 5 destroyed Flankers? Wasn't that part of the mission statement of this aircraft?

Yes...even the F-14 could track/shoot multiple aircraft at the same time. The F-15 and F-16 can do that, too. The Raptor is a phenomenally capable aircraft, regardless -- leaps and bounds more capable than the aircraft it is replacing and definitely has the upper hand against potential adversary aircraft and surface-to-air systems.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with determining how many are needed for a particular combat capability for the country. Airframes can't be all places at all times -- they are in depot maintenance, and scheduled maintenance, and taken apart as the cann bird, and impounded because of a flight control malfunction, etc. People need jets to train on...and the squadrons that flight test new software and hardware need jets to test...and the squadrons at Nellis that develop new tactics need jets...and the Weapons School needs jets...and the training squadrons need jets.

Not every aircraft is sitting postured ready to go to war at all times.
 
I can't discuss those tactics with you: but Fish sure as heck can, and I look forward to watching that discussion unfold.

It looks like so far he doesn't exactly agree with everything you're saying, and while he might not be on the same piece of equipment as you, he's certainly in the same line of work.
 
So, being a ground pounder makes one qualified to say, "The USAF can annihilate any enemy in the air (or in the ground) as it is right now."

I'm glad he's so confident...because I'm not.

Lots of people make statements about how capable our airpower is based on...I don't know, probably what they see on the Discovery channel. It's an interesting bit of self-promotion for the USAF to say things like "the most capable air force in the world", but the reality is a little different.



Again, what is such a statement based on? Unless you are prepared to discuss specific aircraft and missile capabilities, or what types of tactics those countries are using, or how those tactics rack up against what the US is currently using...well, then, it's all pretty much just intellectual masturbation.

There are a half dozen or more countries who could currently give the USAF a big black eye based on their technology alone. There are still more with "second rate" equipment that could get in enough lucky punches to make it hurt for America.

Ultimately, US military power would probably win...but at what cost?



Yes...even the F-14 could track/shoot multiple aircraft at the same time. The F-15 and F-16 can do that, too. The Raptor is a phenomenally capable aircraft, regardless -- leaps and bounds more capable than the aircraft it is replacing and definitely has the upper hand against potential adversary aircraft and surface-to-air systems.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with determining how many are needed for a particular combat capability for the country. Airframes can't be all places at all times -- they are in depot maintenance, and scheduled maintenance, and taken apart as the cann bird, and impounded because of a flight control malfunction, etc. People need jets to train on...and the squadrons that flight test new software and hardware need jets to test...and the squadrons at Nellis that develop new tactics need jets...and the Weapons School needs jets...and the training squadrons need jets.

Not every aircraft is sitting postured ready to go to war at all times.

Like who? Please elaborate.
 
Fish, those are all valid points. Fortunately, I'm not a politician who has to make decisions like that.

As someone who puts his pink butt into harm's way, though, and knows a little something about the capabilities of friendly equipment, I have to question statements about legacy fighters being "good enough" and 187 Raptors being "enough".
 
So here's a bit of a problem here:

-You can't tell us what enough us. That's fine, and incredibly fair. There's no reason to let us in on information that we don't need to know about.

-You don't think that our present military capacity is big enough.

My concern is, from your perspective, that we'll NEVER have enough aircraft, enough nuclear weapons, enough carriers, enough forward operating bases, enough tankers, enough C-17's, enough ANYTHING to really ASSURE ourselves that our way of life can't be destroyed. Eventually it escalates to the point of the country becoming bankrupt, and then what good does all that military hardware do any of us?

Or said another way, this is a balance, and at a point, there is a reason that the politicians are in charge of the purse strings here, and not the generals. If it was up to the generals, we'd never have enough military equipment. But our country is constrained by what we can afford eh?
 
That statement is based on what?


I'm not going to deny that you, as a Navy pilot, know more than me about all this.

My statement is based on the "needs" for the wars that are currently being waged. With an enemy that has no air force, or substantial air defenses.

I don't know how many jet fighters have been downed by the enemy. However, I know that thousands of US soldiers have been blown apart by IED's, and that many lives could've been saved if those soldiers were riding in vehicles with better armor (not to mention the thousands more men and women with disabling injuries)

I guess that in a "perfect" world there will be money for every need the Armed Forces have. Shoot, as a matter of fact I think that in a perfect world there would be no need for armies, and we would live in peace.

However, since we don't leave in a perfect world and resources are limited, I think that urgent needs should be addressed first.

Again, I'm just an ignorant grunt, that doesn't know better, so if I'm talking smack I apologize in advance :)

And to finish, please let me thank you for your service, and the support to the ground troops that you guys provide. :)
 
-You don't think that our present military capacity is big enough.

No, I don't agree -- that's not what I'm saying. There absolutely is a limit to how much the US can spend. I'm not in favor of some monolithic endless military machine.

The problem is this: If you look at the aircraft military capability the US has had for the past 30 years, then compare it to a "post F-22" world, there is a greatly diminished capacity.

In fact, the USAF is about 60% of the size it was when I first joined -- and arguably has more demanded of it today than ever.

The USAF has gone through a massive leaning out since the end of Desert Storm in 1991, and is much more agile and efficient than it ever has been.

But, the fact is, our competitors have caught up while we've mantained the status quo -- even worse, our machines are much older now than they have ever been. Our frontline fighters are 30+ years old. Our bombers and tankers are nearly DOUBLE that age. In the case of something like the B-52, it's as if we were fighting in the Vietnam war with Sopwith Camels from WWI.

The F-22 went through it's testing in 1991...and through endless fighting and foot dragging on the part of Congress, did not get on active duty until 2005!

So, all I really want to do is preserve the same capability we all ready sort of possess...or used to.
 
Like who? Please elaborate.

China - everyone knows this; lots of front-line weapons and HUGE numbers of older ones. The saying goes that there aren't enough missiles bullets in the US arsenal to shoot down every Chinese aircraft. The US would take massive losses in the air against the PLAAF. Naturally we would deal them a savage blow, too...but in the most likely scenario (the defense of Taiwan), we are fighting on their home field.
North Korea - THE most heavily defended place on earth. Over 70,000 pieces of anti-aircraft artillery in a country the size of Mississippi. Has been preparing for war for 50 years...has underground airfields, missiles that pop up on elevators on mountaintops, and a ton of MiGs. Most importantly, they have a population and military that is fanatically motivated -- very similar to the Japanese in the 40s. If NK ever decides to roll south, it will be a VERY, very bloody war on both sides. Same story as above with the home field advantage.
India - Much smarter and technologically advanced than we give them credit for. The Cope India exercises showed that they have not only learned from past mistakes, but come up with a few tricks of their own. Don't be lulled into thinking that India would never be a US foe. Allegiances in south Asia rise and fall with the winds...and this alliance depends heavily on how much the US sides with Pakistan.
Russia - Athough the Georgia war exposed some problems with their air force (it has atrophied significantly since the cold war), this is the country that designed and built all those aircraft and missiles that equal or better US equipment.

Some of the ex-Soviet client states, like Ukraine and Belarus fall into a similar category with respect to their equipment.

Iran almost fits in there, except their air defenses are what they do well...not their aircraft.
 
And to finish, please let me thank you for your service, and the support to the ground troops that you guys provide. :)

No, the thanks goes to you, my friend. Protecting the ground pounder is the most sacred mission we do, and it is certainly the most satisfying. No pilot ever took a hill and planted a flag on the top of it. That honor goes exclusively to the man with the rifle and boots!
 
Fish, those are all valid points. Fortunately, I'm not a politician who has to make decisions like that.

But Gates (and Obama, and all of the senators and congressmen who weigh in) are. I don't know that they're making the "right" decision either, and actually no one does. We'd have to be able to perfectly predict the future to know that.

Hacker15e said:
As someone who puts his pink butt into harm's way, though, and knows a little something about the capabilities of friendly equipment, I have to question statements about legacy fighters being "good enough" and 187 Raptors being "enough".

Well, I'm a former tanker guy and if AFPC ever gets its act together and PCS's me, I'll probably wind up back there again. I'm not in harm's way in the same way that you are, because of guys in 16's or 15's or 22's or whatever else... but that doesn't mean that I can't get hit. If even a MiG 15 gets through, I don't have the defensive systems or capabilities to do anything about it. But no matter what either of us fly in the future, we'll still both be in harms' way and "good enough" is the only way to measure it. Even if we do fly F-69's (giggity), that doesn't mean one can't get shot down. War is a risky business.

We've chosen to mitigate the risk with high tech planes. We could have chosen low tech planes and flooded the sky with them (the Chinese option), or low tech planes with high tech missiles, or a bunch of other options. Fewer F-22's is a constraint. Planners will have to take it into account.

But we don't have an unlimited budget. If we keep the F-22's, what else would we cut? Personnel? Something's got to give somewhere.
 
No, I don't agree -- that's not what I'm saying. There absolutely is a limit to how much the US can spend. I'm not in favor of some monolithic endless military machine.

The problem is this: If you look at the aircraft military capability the US has had for the past 30 years, then compare it to a "post F-22" world, there is a greatly diminished capacity.

In fact, the USAF is about 60% of the size it was when I first joined -- and arguably has more demanded of it today than ever.

The USAF has gone through a massive leaning out since the end of Desert Storm in 1991, and is much more agile and efficient than it ever has been.

But, the fact is, our competitors have caught up while we've mantained the status quo -- even worse, our machines are much older now than they have ever been. Our frontline fighters are 30+ years old. Our bombers and tankers are nearly DOUBLE that age. In the case of something like the B-52, it's as if we were fighting in the Vietnam war with Sopwith Camels from WWI.

The F-22 went through it's testing in 1991...and through endless fighting and foot dragging on the part of Congress, did not get on active duty until 2005!

So, all I really want to do is preserve the same capability we all ready sort of possess...or used to.

Great post Hacker. The second sentence especially. I've often thought when guys show support for military spending, but rail against other types of spending that they don't understand that the military isn't our only priority.

We need spending for the military. But we need limits too. We need spending on other areas, and we need limits in other areas, too.
 
China - everyone knows this; lots of front-line weapons and HUGE numbers of older ones. The saying goes that there aren't enough missiles bullets in the US arsenal to shoot down every Chinese aircraft. The US would take massive losses in the air against the PLAAF. Naturally we would deal them a savage blow, too...but in the most likely scenario (the defense of Taiwan), we are fighting on their home field.
North Korea - THE most heavily defended place on earth. Over 70,000 pieces of anti-aircraft artillery in a country the size of Mississippi. Has been preparing for war for 50 years...has underground airfields, missiles that pop up on elevators on mountaintops, and a ton of MiGs. Most importantly, they have a population and military that is fanatically motivated -- very similar to the Japanese in the 40s. If NK ever decides to roll south, it will be a VERY, very bloody war on both sides. Same story as above with the home field advantage.
India - Much smarter and technologically advanced than we give them credit for. The Cope India exercises showed that they have not only learned from past mistakes, but come up with a few tricks of their own. Don't be lulled into thinking that India would never be a US foe. Allegiances in south Asia rise and fall with the winds...and this alliance depends heavily on how much the US sides with Pakistan.
Russia - Athough the Georgia war exposed some problems with their air force (it has atrophied significantly since the cold war), this is the country that designed and built all those aircraft and missiles that equal or better US equipment.

Some of the ex-Soviet client states, like Ukraine and Belarus fall into a similar category with respect to their equipment.

Iran almost fits in there, except their air defenses are what they do well...not their aircraft.

The problem with your logic is though all of these states have decent Air Forces, or air defense capabilities, none of these countries have a quarrel with us.

China: We owe them too much money for them to want to beat it out of us, they can milk us dry for the next century.

North Korea: Imploding slowly from the inside, you can have guns or butter, not both, I sincerely doubt we'll ever fight them. That being said, this is a fairly legitimate threat. However, the threat comes not from unfriendly PRK aircraft, but rather from a million plus armed Koreans overrunning the DMZ

India: The eastern slice of "who-we-can-trust" bread in a middle east sandwich. As long as we're fighting over there, and helping quell the rise of Islamism, I doubt very seriously that the worlds largest democracy will want to quarrel. Beyond that, you remember from political science class, "no two countries with McDonalds restaurants have ever attacked eachother?" (that may have changed, but there's something to be said for fairly affluent democracies not wanting to slap eachother around).

Russia: The Russians will screw with us (e.g. TU-95s, and Venezuela bases) but if we didn't go to war during a 50 year nuclear standoff, then you can bet your ass that the Russians, as smart as they are, are not going to fight with us right now. Especially not when the economy is in the toilet. They couldn't afford a real war if they wanted to, look at how little effort they've put into the conflict in Chechnya.

Ukraine/Belarus: Ehh, I've been to Ukraine, and frankly, though they have some decent equipment, I highly doubt even if they decided to fight that they would stand much of a chance. Really, all of the CNG (CIS) states' militrary forces are in somewhat of a state of decay and disrepair. Just look at what happened in Georgia.

The countries I'm worried about are Pakistan (they've got Nukes), Iran (think straights of Hormuz) though they wouldn't put up much of a fight, it'd still be bad for the economy, and finally, Mexico. Its crazy close to home, and unstable as hell right now, plus we get a hell of a lot of Oil from there. And all three of those wars would be anti-partisan actions, similar to Iraq after the immediate opening days of the conflict, if they happened at all (Pakistan is already kind of going).



Now, I'm going to put something out there. We've already got a super stealthy bomber, and fighter bomber, the B2, and F117 respectively. I'd venture a guess that no matter where we go to war, there's a good chance that any countries planning on using their air forces wouldn't even be able to get them off of the ground, or for those they managed to hide, or if the sheer numbers of aircraft dispatched was too great, the turkey shoot would be on. Again, the F15E has never been shot down (there might be classified cases, but publicly, never). Plus, we have F22s out there already. If they need to dogfight, I doubt there's anything on the planet that can really go toe-to-toe with 187 of them. an additional 113 won't make or break American air superiority. I could be completely off base with this, but I'm a fairly disinterested party in these respects.
 
Weakness, real or imagined, is an invitation to aggression. Part of having an advanced system such as the -22 is knowing that if you go against it, you may well be promptly handed your *ss. Thus.. a reluctance to challenge.

You can say ass. I say it all day. Ass, ass, assist the assistant assessment!

But, by all means, if you think a word deserves a non-alphabetic character for gravitas, please use another word.
 
I also appreciate your service Hacker and Fish I'm leaving for US Army basic training in Ft. Jackson on next Tuesday...

And the above comments that pprag and the other guys I think are pretty accurate. Prime motive of all countries are making money and self perpetuation. China, the US, and Russia are making too much money off each other to want to go to war despite marked differences. Like I said before our biggest risk of an arms race was Bush 2 with China, but Obama has now made it very clear thats not the route were taking.

The only X-factors are North Korea or Iran, but the 187 F-22s, a few B-2s, and the rest of the US arsenal plus NATO should do the job in the air. As for the ground war, thats a whole nother thread but at least the current arnsenal should hold air superiority which is crucial!
 
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