Gaining time WITHOUT your CFI

B-Squad

B-Squad

Well-Known Member
So I've looked through the forums for hours now and can't seem to find an answer to this question: does anyone ever get their ATP without instructing? What I mean is that there have got to be guys (or ladies) out there that worked and gained hours doing something other than instructing - I don't know, maybe flying up in Alaska, performing other random jobs in an airplane. Kind of brings me to part II of my question: If not instructing, what can you do with a commercial cert? I realize the answer is "not much", but what are the few things you can do?

I realize that instructing is the best way to gain those hours and that it opens up a lot more doors as far as options are concerned, but I really want to hear from someone who DIDN'T do it that way. There has to be some of you out there...
 
Most jobs require 500 hours TT that are single engine. I flew as a fire detection pilot in C182s and the requirements are 500 TT with 25 High Performance.
 
B-Squad said:
So I've looked through the forums for hours now and can't seem to find an answer to this question: does anyone ever get their ATP without instructing? What I mean is that there have got to be guys (or ladies) out there that worked and gained hours doing something other than instructing - I don't know, maybe flying up in Alaska, performing other random jobs in an airplane. Kind of brings me to part II of my question: If not instructing, what can you do with a commercial cert? I realize the answer is "not much", but what are the few things you can do?

I realize that instructing is the best way to gain those hours and that it opens up a lot more doors as far as options are concerned, but I really want to hear from someone who DIDN'T do it that way. There has to be some of you out there...
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I've got ATP mins (don't have the ticket yet) and then some, and I never instructed a day in my life.

Of course, I got scooped up in the last airline hiring wave. I had a little more than bare-mins commercial certificate as well.

I considered all options. If you poke around, there are in fact some options. Things like banner towing, pipeline patrol, traffic watch, and flying the jump plane for skydivers comes to mind.

Crop dusting is also a worthwhile enterprise. You get to help out with the food we all need to live, and you can actually make some cash doing it. Ask around, there are a few types on here that do that work. They'll know more about it than I.

A number of places do require certain amounts of time, etc, but that'll vary. Keep looking and you might find something that swings your way.

I must admit banner towing sounds like fun until you find out how it works. Apparently you don't release it in flight, you hook it up from the ground while already airborne. Think carrier-style tailhook, but instead of stopping you're taking something with you. Spooked me right out of it.

Personally, my plan was always to flight instruct. The fact that I didn't shouldn't really lend weight to the pro/con argument. I just got scooped up before I did any instructing. I was working on my MEI when it happened.

Flight instructing, in reality, is probably your simplest option, but that's entirely your call. Do what works for you. :)
 
You won't find too many advocates of the non-CFI route of civilian career progression here.

And when you do, you'll be reminded that it appears so many members on this forum only end up telling people to get their CFI and instruct.
 
I hold an ATP and not a CFI. It can be done, it just takes some hard work and dedication to find jobs other than instructing.

I was extremely lucking in the company I worked for at the time paid for some of my ratings and I was able to slide into a PIC slot in a part 91/137 operation. I stayed there until I had 135 mins and moved on to cargo for almost two years.

Again, it can be done, but as you will find out, most opt for the instruction route.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Crop dusting is also a worthwhile enterprise. You get to help out with the food we all need to live, and you can actually make some cash doing it. Ask around, there are a few types on here that do that work. They'll know more about it than I.
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I have no crop dusting experience, but from what I understand it is FAR from a job for low time pilots. Have you seen the airplanes used for crop dusting these days? I sure wouldn't want a low time guy flying a 550 - 1300 HP SE turbine in a very low level, dynamic environment with extremely expensive chemicals and exacting tolerances.
 
wrxpilot said:
I have no crop dusting experience, but from what I understand it is FAR from a job for low time pilots. Have you seen the airplanes used for crop dusting these days? I sure wouldn't want a low time guy flying a 550 - 1300 HP SE turbine in a very low level, dynamic environment with extremely expensive chemicals and exacting tolerances.
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Overall, yes... but there are always exceptions.

There are ag jobs where a low time pilot could fly and gain very good experience without dealing with the exacting tolerances that some chemicals require.

Take my experience for an example. The company I worked for did aerial mosquito control. For the first year or so, I flew right seat on applications, gaining the necessary knowledge and experience that would be required to operate as PIC. By the time I had 800 hours or so, I was handling operations as PIC of the largest and most complex airplane in the fleet.

It is all about the training and willingness of the individual. If one is willing to accept the rigourous schedules and training required to operate in such and environment, then it is possible. If someone does not have that drive and expects thing to just be handed to them and fall in place, it will more than likely never work.
 
It can be done, as others here have said. Networking will go a long way towards getting a job with no CFI. However, be aware that some of the more traditional jobs like traffic watch are going away because of the economy. Traffic watch pilots in Boston alone had their schedule reduced by more than 50%:eek:. Getting the CFI is no silver bullet, but it does open doors!
 
ctab5060X said:
Overall, yes... but there are always exceptions.
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That's cool. You're right, there are always exceptions... Just wanted to clear up the fact that crop dusting is not a typical low time job. It's kind of like how you hear people say "go fly freight to build time". Again, not a low time job.

I have known people that got into ferrying a/c at fairly low time, so that *might* be another possibility. Though I think one's chances will be far better for domestic ferrying rather than the hardcore international stuff.
 
I guess I will be that guy: Most people (not saying you) that inquire about making it without a CFI are those that are affraid of the hard work and/or practical test. Like those above have said, there are ways without a CFI cert. But I would advise otherwise in todays market.
 
CFIing is just one of many ways to build time towards an ATP. It's as good as any other method.......all have their respective pros and cons.
 
wrxpilot said:
I have no crop dusting experience, but from what I understand it is FAR from a job for low time pilots. Have you seen the airplanes used for crop dusting these days? I sure wouldn't want a low time guy flying a 550 - 1300 HP SE turbine in a very low level, dynamic environment with extremely expensive chemicals and exacting tolerances.
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Fair enough. To be honest, I have no idea what it takes to be a crop duster, but I read an article recently purporting the richness of the life. Given that, it seemed like a route one might suggest.
 
Yeah, I've been trying to find out more info on Ag flying. I would think that most wouldn't see it as a time building job but as a career, unless one possibly moves on to aerial firefighting from there?
 
I went from 270 Hours to 900 Hours reporting traffic to a local traffic studio...

You just have to look for them but those small jobs are out there...
 
B-Squad said:
So I've looked through the forums for hours now and can't seem to find an answer to this question: does anyone ever get their ATP without instructing? What I mean is that there have got to be guys (or ladies) out there that worked and gained hours doing something other than instructing - I don't know, maybe flying up in Alaska, performing other random jobs in an airplane. Kind of brings me to part II of my question: If not instructing, what can you do with a commercial cert? I realize the answer is "not much", but what are the few things you can do?

I realize that instructing is the best way to gain those hours and that it opens up a lot more doors as far as options are concerned, but I really want to hear from someone who DIDN'T do it that way. There has to be some of you out there...
Click to expand...

I don't have a CFI and I have more than ATP mins (other than age). I built my time flying around in the bush doing part 91 work, I'd recommend banner towing. I built up to 1000TT flying as an SIC at a 135 outfit flying the 1900C, then back to the bush. The bush and alaska work typically requires 1000TT unless you're lucky, in some cases it takes a lot more.

I think banners, skydivers, or towing gliders would be the best way to go. Especially if you could get some tailwheel.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Fair enough. To be honest, I have no idea what it takes to be a crop duster, but I read an article recently purporting the richness of the life. Given that, it seemed like a route one might suggest.
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GlenA said:
Yeah, I've been trying to find out more info on Ag flying. I would think that most wouldn't see it as a time building job but as a career, unless one possibly moves on to aerial firefighting from there?
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Gents... a quick word about ag flying...

(I know I also speak for t-cart on this one as well)

It might seem like a super cool job where you can make a lot of money, but...

During the season, you will be away from your family potentially as much or more as a junior reserve pilot who commutes...

If you think 121/35 rest and duty times allow for too much work and not enough rest... they are tame compared to the non existent duty times for part 135 operations.

5+ legs a day becomes a cakewalk when you do 30-40 loads a day... each on with an airplane that is loaded to the gills and is barely wanting to fly.

The list is endless... just like any job, pay is only one part of the equation. Look at the QOL and ask yourself if it is worth it. I personally have worked 28 straight days with somewhere around 150 hours of flight time in that period. 28 days... at least 12 hours a day at work... average of just over 5 hours of flight time per day. Sure, the money was great, but I had no life outside of work.

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but those are some of the realities of the job. Also, it is all fun and games until your best friend who you see and fly with almost every day for years suddenly is not there anymore...
 
My opinion may not have much leverage in the OP's question; but im currently working on my PPL and plan to instruct as much as i can. I belive that if one must teach then one must know...ALOT...about what one is teaching. Look into instructing with an open mind. I look forward to it until a student throw sup in the plane becasue of motion sickness...ugh lol. I know my post isn't an answer. However, I'd thought i would give another point of view to the pot.


-matt
 
ahsmatt7 said:
My opinion may not have much leverage in the OP's question; but im currently working on my PPL and plan to instruct as much as i can. I belive that if one must teach then one must know...ALOT...about what one is teaching. Look into instructing with an open mind. I look forward to it until a student throw sup in the plane becasue of motion sickness...ugh lol. I know my post isn't an answer. However, I'd thought i would give another point of view to the pot.


-matt
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I'd agree with that, but I also disagree. I've had a few CFI's who I could tell were doing the whole CFI gig for no other reason to build time. Its easy to tell after a while, who's in it for time versus who's in it because they want to teach. Those who are truely in it to teach, make leanring much easier, as a student. Those who want to build hours have no real incentive to teach more than the bare minimum for their students.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I'd agree with that, but I also disagree. I've had a few CFI's who I could tell were doing the whole CFI gig for no other reason to build time. Its easy to tell after a while, who's in it for time versus who's in it because they want to teach. Those who are truely in it to teach, make leanring much easier, as a student. Those who want to build hours have no real incentive to teach more than the bare minimum for their students.
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Lets face it, there aren't many young CFIs who want to make a career out of doing that. However, to me a good CFI is one who wants to teach as well as build time. That way, they're honest with their aspirations, as well as with their work ethic.
 
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