GA departing Bravo

Brian Z

Well-Known Member
I plan on picking up a family member at DEN for the holidays. They are arriving at 11:20pm so I am not worried about getting in, but I plan on filing IFR anyway so they expect me. My question is do I need to hear "cleared into Bravo" when I depart VFR(assuming VFR conditions) or is the take-off clearance an implied Bravo entry clearance?

Brian
 

minitour

New Member
Clearance Delivery will say something like "N12345 is cleared out of the class bravo airspace at or below 7,000, departure frequency ___, squawk____"

That's your clearance.

-mini
 

Sheblerep

New Member
Just and idea, but the last time I flew into DIA I called the tower beforehand. They were really nice about the whole thing, waived the fees, and still knew I was comming without being on a clearance (IFR). I just hate dealing with Denver Approach!
 

Brian Z

Well-Known Member
Just and idea, but the last time I flew into DIA I called the tower beforehand. They were really nice about the whole thing, waived the fees, and still knew I was comming without being on a clearance (IFR). I just hate dealing with Denver Approach!
I may do that. Thanks for the input.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Just and idea, but the last time I flew into DIA I called the tower beforehand. They were really nice about the whole thing, waived the fees, and still knew I was comming without being on a clearance (IFR). I just hate dealing with Denver Approach!
Waived the fees? What fees would the tower waive???

DIA = DEN ???
 

mkeflyer

New Member
If your pax are arriving into DEN at 11:20pm, why not just file IFR out, there can't be that much traffic at that time of night.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
If your pax are arriving into DEN at 11:20pm, why not just file IFR out, there can't be that much traffic at that time of night.
:yeahthat:
If you really need to go out VFR, you'll get your clearance into Class B from Clearance delivery. Contrary to what a previous poster said, the fact that you are in Class B when on the ground means nothing as far as being cleared when you leave. I have run into this when doing a stop taxi-back with VFR departure from a Class B airport...I was a student and my CFI didn't know that we were supposed to pick up a clearance for a VFR departure. Departure was pretty annoyed when we contacted them and didn't have an altitude or heading that we were cleared to.
 

kgflyboy

New Member
Why not pick them up at front range or centennial? Depart under the class bravo. Even if the fees are waived, DEN could still cost more money than other airports. Taxiing around an airport that size will burn more fuel and take time. It just seems like unnecessary hassle IMO.
 

Brian Z

Well-Known Member
Why not pick them up at front range or centennial? Depart under the class bravo. Even if the fees are waived, DIA could still cost more money than other airports. Taxiing around an airport that size will burn more fuel and take time. It just seems like unnecessary hassle IMO.
They are arriving commercially so APA and FTG are really not an option. Anyway this is really a personal thing that my brother and I want to do.
 

ATC RET 2003

No More Vectors
Contrary to what a previous poster said, the fact that you are in Class B when on the ground means nothing as far as being cleared when you leave.
I didn't mention anything about a clearance... just that it is not always necessary to be airborne to be in Class B airspace. The OP's question was:

My question is do I need to hear "cleared into Bravo" when I depart VFR(assuming VFR conditions)
and the answer is "no"... in the stated scenario, you would need to hear. "cleared out of Bravo." You and another poster specified that this clearance is usually obtained from clearance delivery and I concur.

The OP also asked:

...or is the take-off clearance an implied Bravo entry clearance?
A Class B clearance is never implied. If you do not hear (from FAAO 7110.65) CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE, you do not have a clearance.

Another subsequent poster asked this:

Waived the fees? What fees would the tower waive???
I'm still hoping that question will get answered, because I have never heard of the tower waiving fees, either.
 

Xcaliber

El Chupacabra
A Class B clearance is never implied. If you do not hear (from FAAO 7110.65) CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE, you do not have a clearance.
Not that I don't believe you on that, but I've had a friend who was given a VFR vector into MSP class B from approach, but did not get the "cleared to enter" class B airspace. When he was about to penetrate, he asked to verify that he was cleared to enter, and was told that a vector into the class B was a clearance to enter it.

Also, nowhere in the regs (that I know of) does it differentiate the necessity of a clearance (ie "cleared to enter") to enter VFR vs. IFR. Having never heard of any IFR aircraft getting a "clearance to enter", how does that play in?

I've always believed in the whole "cleared to enter" idea, but when I thought about it, it doesn't say anything like that in Part 91/AIM. So, since then, I've assumed that any ATC clearance from the appropriate facility that takes you into Class B is clearance to enter. Am I mistaken?
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
Also, nowhere in the regs (that I know of) does it differentiate the necessity of a clearance (ie "cleared to enter") to enter VFR vs. IFR. Having never heard of any IFR aircraft getting a "clearance to enter", how does that play in?

I've always believed in the whole "cleared to enter" idea, but when I thought about it, it doesn't say anything like that in Part 91/AIM. So, since then, I've assumed that any ATC clearance from the appropriate facility that takes you into Class B is clearance to enter. Am I mistaken?

If your IFR and you going to a Class Bravo airport, when you get your IFR clearance on the ground at your departure point, they say "Cleared to Denver. blah blah blah." In my opinion that is your clearance to enter Bravo. If they didnt want you inside for whatever reason, they would change your routing.
 

whysoserial

New Member
If you are IFR, you fly through whatever airspace you happen to fly through. No need to have an additional clearance. VFR, you need to be specifically cleared into the Bravo. Need to hear the words.
 

PGT

Well-Known Member
I'm new to flying Bravo airspace but the other day I was flying to an airport inside the airspace and was given a vector that put me inside, they never said the 'magic words'
nor did they yell at me.

I was with my instructor who's familiar with the area, I asked him this question and he said a vector is fine but if you have any doubt always ask.
 

whysoserial

New Member
For sure, I'm going to go and say that's like flying through a cloud VFR because atc gave you a vector that led you into it. You need a clearance for the cloud and the airspace.
 

ATC RET 2003

No More Vectors
Not that I don't believe you on that, but I've had a friend who was given a VFR vector into MSP class B from approach, but did not get the "cleared to enter" class B airspace. When he was about to penetrate, he asked to verify that he was cleared to enter, and was told that a vector into the class B was a clearance to enter it.

...​

I've always believed in the whole "cleared to enter" idea, but when I thought about it, it doesn't say anything like that in Part 91/AIM. So, since then, I've assumed that any ATC clearance from the appropriate facility that takes you into Class B is clearance to enter. Am I mistaken?
From the AIM:

3-2-1

d. VFR Requirements.
It is the responsibility of
the pilot to insure that ATC clearance or radio
communication requirements are met prior to entry
into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot
retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar
advisories.
(See 14 CFR Part 91.)

3-2-3

b. Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Re-
quirements for VFR Operations.
Regardless of
weather conditions, an ATC clearance is required
prior to operating within Class B airspace.
Pilots
should not request a clearance to operate within
Class B airspace unless the requirements of 14 CFR
Section 91.215 and 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met.
 

PGT

Well-Known Member
So I just called the approach facility around here and talked to a controller.

He said "shame on us" if we vector you into class B without giving you clearance.
He also said technically you need a clearance to enter class B, so the way he worded it a vector is not enough.
Another thing he mentioned is that they might not have the class B map always up so they might not be 100% sure if you're in or out.
Another thing that was mentioned is that if you're unsure at any time, ask.


My conclusion:
I will ask, regardless if they give a vector to put you inside.
 
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