Full flaps

Roger said:
In related news, I pulled the flap breaker on a 172 the other day. The (CFI SEL addon) student flew 2 entire patterns without noticing that he had no flaps. Then I pushed it back in, and he didn't know about it until we debriefed at the end of the flight.
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:drool: Pathetic.

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I don't think that the need for control input constitutes an unstable approach.
 
minitour said:
So you have instrument students flying ILSs to DH with flaps down at 65 knots? ...so they're configured early?
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The "get configured early" I teach for an ILS is get the gear down early, flaps in approach settings (if using) and get slowed down. PT outbound for non-radar, base leg if vectored. This is earlier than most people teach. I don't like a lot of configuration change at the FAF.

Unfortunately, 65 knots is too slow for an ILS; at 90 knots in a C172, you can only have 10 degrees. I only use that setting an an "R" model or above, since those versions are more aerodynamically clean than the older stuff.

There is indeed a problem when arriving at DH in that configuration; power needs to come off immediately and you need to increase your AoA in order to get slowed down to full flap settings. Tardiness results in lots of float.

No, I'm not trying to be a male-part head here, just trying to stimulate a conversation. Hope that's coming across the right way.
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Well, no, it wasn't, but it is now. ;)
 
tgrayson said:
A no flap landing in a Cessna is a different beast from even one with 10 degrees. This really needs specific training because the pitch attitude is so high and the flight path angle is very different from where the nose is pointed.
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Now you are arguing my point for me.:D This is exactly why this SHOULD be taught. Three times in the past year I have had one problem or another that I had to do a no flap landing. The Cessna to me was pretty non-eventful, but the first time it happened in the Cirrus, I was thinking how glad I was that they made us do these.
 
Roger said:
Flaps immediately full up, no rudder, and about half power.

Perfect!
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Hey now, I like my bounces to be soft before I drive off into the ditch...

Me? I'm partial to the the flaps full up, full power, opposite rudder, I must report to the tower RIGHT NOW that I'm going around, go-around.

Back on the OP topic, at the airport I instruct out of, tower letting someone do a normal pattern is more the exception than the rule. I thus take the new primary student to nearby, more quiet fields and teach them standard procedures which--once they understand them--can be modified at the home field as appropriate to accommodate whatever bizarre request tower has today. Once they understand how flaps effect performance, they should be well-equipped to suss out how to use flaps when their downwind has been extended five miles to accommodate a Falcon on the ILS.
 
wjmiller3 said:
Now you are arguing my point for me.:D This is exactly why this SHOULD be taught. Three times in the past year I have had one problem or another that I had to do a no flap landing. The Cessna to me was pretty non-eventful, but the first time it happened in the Cirrus, I was thinking how glad I was that they made us do these.
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I think there's two separate issues here:

1. Should primary students be taught to land with other than X standard configuration? Absolutely.

2. What should be the bulk of landing practice for primary students? IMHO, said X standard configuration.

My intent is to give students a baseline, and then the tools and experience to modify it as the situation requires. The majority of the training, however, will be on that baseline, as most of the time it will be what they're doing with only slight modification, if any. If my student freaks out on a solo, I want their motor memory to guide them to specific actions, not paralyzing confusion because they've never been taught a standard procedure.
 
I just leave them down all the time, that way you can't ever forget. It hurts cruise performance a little, but I never had a problem with a student not knowing when to put them down!
 
shdw said:
I just leave them down all the time, that way you can't ever forget. It hurts cruise performance a little, but I never had a problem with a student not knowing when to put them down!
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LOL..How in the couple of years I have been instructing have I not thought of that..:laff: That is pure genius..
 
wjmiller3 said:
We have an Arrow, somehow it transforms from a fun plane to fly, to a cinderblock when you pull the power back...
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Especially on hot, humid days when the density altitude is on up there. Try to do power off accuracy approaches and you'll have the "flying brick" glide angle of the space shuttle.
 
Dazzler said:
At what point in the traffic pattern do you teach your primary students to extend full flaps on landing?

"When the runway is made" is how I've heard it described sometimes, but how do you teach a student when that point is?

Others teach it as soon as you roll out on final approach.

How about factoring in wind/gusts? Do you still teach full flaps, or land with partial flaps?
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I'm not an instructor yet but from what I've studied it's all a judgment call. In most aircraft that last increment of flaps is pure drag. So I would say the best way is to look at your aim point, airspeed (high or low), and decide if/when you need to add that extra drag to slow down and increase you descent angle. If that makes any sense?

I've always preferred partial flap landings on a good gusty day. Especially in the cessna.
 
at1024 said:
Especially on hot, humid days when the density altitude is on up there. Try to do power off accuracy approaches and you'll have the "flying brick" glide angle of the space shuttle.
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Glide angle isn't affected by density altitude.
 
You know I kind of like the flying brick. It takes all the guess work out. As soon as the power comes off you know exactly how far you go and how long you have.
 
at1024 said:
how? correct me if I'm wrong but does not the decreased air density cause all around decreased performance?
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Glide ratio depends on the L/D ratio; drag depends on IAS and L = W, and neither of those are affected by density altitude.

"all around decreased performance" is an imprecise way to quantify the effects of density altitude. There are many meanings to the word "performance".
 
Also, it depends on the situation. I frequently flew out of a 1200' field with obstacles at the far end. The normal approach there was 20 degrees. If you had to go around, 30 degrees of flaps would put you in the trees.
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For primary guys, I'd suggest full flaps when wings level after turning final. That way he/she can concentrate on straight ahead and not be distracted at an even lower altitude by putting flaps in on short final, etc. Teach a tighter pattern so that they can glide power off from any point and in whatever configuration and be assured a landing on the pavement. This will build a solid foundation for the student.

Be sure that the discussion and demonstration of flaps (let's assume a C172 here) covers how much lift and how much drag you get with each: 10/20-deg give much more lift relative to drag as compared with 30 (or 40) where you get more drag than the relative gain in lift. When we do power off 180s in the pattern, I remind them about this again so they delay deploying flaps until the power off landing is assured. I also make sure they can prudently add the flaps to increase drag if too high/hot--again, while developing the judgement of a landing-assured power-off glide to the runway.

In any event, I like to drill a solid pattern procedure from the start with the primary students so there's a solid and safe foundation and method of operation. As the student understands more and skills/experience develop, I am more interested in seeing good "manage/decide" skills rather than textbook, rote procedure each time, so long as their priorities are there: aviate, navigate, communicate...

A.S.
 
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