Full flaps

[wjmiller3]

Discipline.

A guy who flies into a 9,000 ft runway has trouble landing on a 3,000 ft runway because he's adopted sloppy habits that the long runway forgives. He flies too fast, too shallow, and can't put the airplane down in a predictable place. When faced with a real short-field, he may have trouble flaring the airplane with full flaps.

If you land on every runway like it's only 1,000 ft long, then you can land almost anywhere in the country with no change in technique.

Not saying you should never practice to stay proficient, but if we use the above train of thought, then EVERY landing should be a power off 180 short approach. Cause you never know when you might have an engine failure and you might have trouble getting to the runway because your "sloppy".

 

[tgrayson]

...which is why you shouldn't be putting them down until you can make the runway power off, in the first place.

So you make 100,000 unstabilized approaches in order to prevent one? Silly. I've seen student pilots pull the flaps up to make the runway and it just isn't a big deal. This needs to be a tool in the pilot's toolbox.

 

[tgrayson]

then EVERY landing should be a power off 180 short approach.

Some people do exactly that.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Not saying you should never practice to stay proficient, but if we use the above train of thought, then EVERY landing should be a power off 180 short approach. Cause you never know when you might have an engine failure and you might have trouble getting to the runway because your "sloppy".

Most light trainers fly really nice like that. Not how I do it, but it would work pretty well.

Get in something like a Lance or Arrow and from what I hear it wouldn't work so well.

Fly the plane you're in. When you're in a different plane, fly it the way that works best.

 

[wjmiller3]

Most light trainers fly really nice like that. Not how I do it, but it would work pretty well.

Get in something like a Lance or Arrow and from what I hear it wouldn't work so well.

Fly the plane you're in. When you're in a different plane, fly it the way that works best.

We have an Arrow, somehow it transforms from a fun plane to fly, to a cinderblock when you pull the power back...

 

[USMCmech]

Fly the plane you're in.

And learn how to fly that airplane in every possible configuration. Flaps, no flaps, short fast unstable aproaches, perfect rectangle patterns, master them all.

Doing something "the same way every time" will garuntee that one day you will be confronted with a situation you are unprepared for.

You're a pilot, not a robot.

 

[Roger, Roger]

And learn how to fly that airplane in every possible configuration. Flaps, no flaps, short fast unstable aproaches, perfect rectangle patterns, master them all.

Doing something "the same way every time" will garuntee that one day you will be confronted with a situation you are unprepared for.

You're a pilot, not a robot.

That's half the fun! Still, in relation to this thread's topic, unless there are extenuating circumstances I'd rather land the airplanes I fly with full flaps every time.

 

[minitour]

So you make 100,000 unstabilized approaches in order to prevent one? Silly. I've seen student pilots pull the flaps up to make the runway and it just isn't a big deal. This needs to be a tool in the pilot's toolbox.

A "stabilized approach" in a light piston single is not the same as a "stabilized approach" in a 737 or an A340 or a Lear jet.

Flaps to land when the landing is assured in a piston single doesn't make it an "unstabilized" approach at all. In a piston, you have power NOW and can make airspeed adjustments as big as you need pretty much all the way down final. The same isn't true for a jet, which is why we're always being told to configure early and nail the airspeed...so you don't have to make any changes that may or may not happen.

Fly the plane you're in. When you're in a different plane, fly it the way that works best.

Bingo.

And learn how to fly that airplane in every possible configuration. Flaps, no flaps, short fast unstable aproaches, perfect rectangle patterns, master them all.

Doing something "the same way every time" will garuntee that one day you will be confronted with a situation you are unprepared for.

You're a pilot, not a robot.

Bingo x2.

Roger - Sure, I'd agree for Normal Ops, but for students...they really do need to learn how to fly that wing. They need to learn how to fly it clean and with flaps any place you can stick 'em. Then when the time comes where the flaps stick at 13-degrees, they don't freak out about not having full flaps.

-mini

 

[Roger, Roger]

Roger - Sure, I'd agree for Normal Ops, but for students...they really do need to learn how to fly that wing. They need to learn how to fly it clean and with flaps any place you can stick 'em. Then when the time comes where the flaps stick at 13-degrees, they don't freak out about not having full flaps.

-mini

True. I try to mix in flaps up and partial flap landings, though maybe not as much as I should.

In related news, I pulled the flap breaker on a 172 the other day. The (CFI SEL addon) student flew 2 entire patterns without noticing that he had no flaps. Then I pushed it back in, and he didn't know about it until we debriefed at the end of the flight.

 

[HeyEng]

And learn how to fly that airplane in every possible configuration. Flaps, no flaps, short fast unstable aproaches, perfect rectangle patterns, master them all.

Doing something "the same way every time" will garuntee that one day you will be confronted with a situation you are unprepared for.

You're a pilot, not a robot.

I am of this thought. I vary the configuration just about EVERY TIME I fly an approach. Simple thinking, I suppose...it keeps me proficient for a plethora of conditions. I have recently gotten myself to go out and practice every imaginable different approaches when the winds are whipping up a good 20+ kt crosswind. I figure if I can master that in ALL CONFIGURATIONS, then I will be a much safer pilot.

I tend to think *for me* in my *PA28*, no flaps or the first notch work best for strong winds. Not to say I can't land with full flaps, but I don't have to work quite as hard to put the airplane where I want it.

 

[tgrayson]

Flaps to land when the landing is assured in a piston single doesn't make it an "unstabilized" approach at all.

That's your opinion, not mine. Putting in flaps on short final changes airpspeed, glide path, and trim. If there were a good reason for it, fine, but the unlikely prospect of an engine failure isn't it, in my view, since it's so easy to fix by raising the flaps. I prefer to see a nice, relaxed, effortless final approach, which is best achieved by getting configured early and having the airplane fly itself along the glidepath until you begin the flare. A last minute flap change messes up that pretty picture.

If you can land the airplane in the high drag configuration, cleaner configurations are even easier, so having students make landings at
various flap settings has negligible value. Regardless, I find that students sometimes forget the last notch of flaps anyway and they don't even notice the difference until they start to raise them during the takeoff. They obviously did not require specific training at lower flap settings.

 

[escapepilot]

Not in a properly executed go-around.

True, but how many typical private rated pilots would be able to make a proper go around? This particular field has about 1200' of turf with a slight uphill. Obstacles at the far end inlcude powerlines, trees, a former microwave tower less than 100' to the left and hangers on the right. Not an easy approach for a low time pilot.

 

[tgrayson]

I vary the configuration just about EVERY TIME I fly an approach.

But that's poor training for a private pilot. It leaves him confused about what flaps do and how to choose the proper setting. Doubt undermines his confidence.

It makes his life much easier if you can remove one variable from the equation.

 

[tgrayson]

True, but how many typical private rated pilots would be able to make a proper go around?

I have yet to see one.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I have yet to see one.

Flaps immediately full up, no rudder, and about half power.

Perfect!

 

[wjmiller3]

But that's poor training for a private pilot. It leaves him confused about what flaps do and how to choose the proper setting. Doubt undermines his confidence.

It makes his life much easier if you can remove one variable from the equation.

I would agree with that in the begining of training. But near the end they should see and know how the plane acts in various configurations. Cessna may not change much with no flaps, but in the SR22, approach speed goes up to almost 100kts for no flaps. We are required to teach this in transition training, because if someone ever went out and had a flap failure and TRIED to come in at 80kts because he knew no better, we might be reading a thread about him on JC...

 

[minitour]

I prefer to see a nice, relaxed, effortless final approach, which is best achieved by getting configured early and having the airplane fly itself along the glidepath until you begin the flare.

So you have instrument students flying ILSs to DH with flaps down at 65 knots? ...so they're configured early?

(I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I have and do teach it both ways. No, I'm not trying to be a male-part head here, just trying to stimulate a conversation. Hope that's coming across the right way.)



-mini

 

[wjmiller3]

Flaps immediately full up, no rudder, and about half power.

Perfect!

This is an exact replica of a missed approach I had today. All of the above and add to the list no positive rate, just maintain level pitch attitude.anic:

 

[Roger, Roger]

This is an exact replica of a missed approach I had today. All of the above and add to the list no positive rate, just maintain level pitch attitude.anic:

Ooooh the botched missed approach is awesome. You're in actual IMC and not really climbing, with the airspeed decaying saying "uh let's add full power. what's your pitch attitude s'posed to be for climb? how 'bout the heading for the missed?".

 

[tgrayson]

Cessna may not change much with no flaps, but in the SR22, approach speed goes up to almost 100kts for no flaps.

A no flap landing in a Cessna is a different beast from even one with 10 degrees. This really needs specific training because the pitch attitude is so high and the flight path angle is very different from where the nose is pointed.