jynxyjoe
Queso King
our early retirement median at SJI was 62 or a little less when we were done with pullouts.
Gotta say, I think that's gonna be me in the future. I love this sitting around getting paid to do nothing crap.
Frontier guys
- Thread starter jynxyjoe
- Start date
Gotta say, I think that's gonna be me in the future. I love this sitting around getting paid to do nothing crap.
roundout
VNAV monitor
(ʘ‿ʘ)╯
JS,
Understand. I thought the data might be buried in some FAA stats somewhere (stats I couldn't find). That 20K is an important number.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I know right?
swakid8
Well-Known Member
I can attest to this based on the experience level I am seeing at GTI new hires unless you are Compass/TSA/ExpressJet refugees.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
I'm curious if you guys think this Frontier ATP thing will hold up. I had some great conversations with F9 management pilots in the past ("Ahoy, fun fact about 'Steve' the Eagle on the tail...") and have friends there. So IF this thing is legit and I can have an F9 interview lined up with an actual chance of getting hired, then that is worth exploring. I have a $10k loan (interest free) lined up to finish my IFR thru CFII, skipping the Multi and MEI hoping I'll find an employer one day to help with those. I already bought Sheppard Air and am close to ready for the IFR\CFII written tests, so that is plan "A". However, as much as going about $60k in debt seems stupid when I've gone this far with my head above water, if there is a realistic chance of skipping the regionals (as stupid as that seems with dudes on the street), I may just cancel these upcoming written tests and look into ATP.
But, of course, I know it is a gamble, which is why I'm only luke warm to the idea of going into literally 6 times the debt and then some. You know, unless that 6 times the debt leads to way more lifetime earnings. That said, this seems too good to be true. Compass, Trans States, Xjet, air travel still nowhere close to normal, yet skip the regionals? Doesn't smell right.
On that note and a bit off topic, I previously knew a guy who went from survey in piston singles to Allegiant and 2 other guys who went from pilot mill CFI to Allegiant, but all in the Mad Dog days. When things were "normal", did they still hire people with no turbine time?
But, of course, I know it is a gamble, which is why I'm only luke warm to the idea of going into literally 6 times the debt and then some. You know, unless that 6 times the debt leads to way more lifetime earnings. That said, this seems too good to be true. Compass, Trans States, Xjet, air travel still nowhere close to normal, yet skip the regionals? Doesn't smell right.
On that note and a bit off topic, I previously knew a guy who went from survey in piston singles to Allegiant and 2 other guys who went from pilot mill CFI to Allegiant, but all in the Mad Dog days. When things were "normal", did they still hire people with no turbine time?
Last edited:
roundout
VNAV monitor
Do tell.
Beefy McGee
Well-Known Member
Is this Frontier flow program only for guys who do the full professional pilot course at ATP though? Can you do the full professional pilot course if you already have a rating or two?
It was 15 months ago when I heard this so TIFWIW, but at that time I was told that you had to be selected for the program. There was no volunteering, or applying. you also had to do the full program, and ATP was selecting the guys who had been the best (what the criteria was, I have no idea) to pilot this program. That may have been the first handful of guys only. Again, old information at this point.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
As @mwflyer said you have to be selected. And you have to be super fu-king sharp! Like no showing up to the graduation party at the pool and graduating number 2 next to Iceman. And not having a RIO when you got back to the ship. Even if Viper offered to fly with you and be your RIO.
You'd have to brown nose so much in the current environment to get on with Frontier via ATP. Your skin would be more brown than mine. An bitch, I'm an original Hersey's Milk chocolate bar brown. ATP shared the same building as my flight school in SLC. You could tell the brown nosers who had ATP managers balls in their mouths. But guaranteed they were going to the ones getting the choice jobs after CFI'ing, but back then they were brown noising for the likes of PSA, flying a CRJ. Palapatine: "To cheat death, is a power only one has ever achieved." Sorry, I got sidetracked. I mean. To skip the regionals and fly for Frontier w/ ATP, they'd have to Brooklyn--Battery tunnel your ass so hard, an you'd have to be Oliver Twist. Not to be confused wth Jack Twist or Jack Nasty and be all like, "please sir, can I have some more?" And as you have REPEATEDLY told me. "No means no, Max." So, yeah, I'd seek out other avenues.
Besides you don't have the personality to be a sycophant. Unless that's changed, if so DM me!
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Hell it's interesting enough when the Bus is your first jet.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Let's just say once you've gotten a guy to play the audio of a turtle having sex with a boot over a busy freq with no solicitation, you've made a lasting connection.
I was told by an ATP recruiter that you just have to do the fast track, BUT there are 2 fast tracks; 0 to hero or PPL with X amount of XC hours, which I meet, and either qualify you. So if I take this IFR written I have coming up, I'm disqualified (yes, just for passing the written before ATP, they want your $$$). So that is why I'm considering.
Sorry for the long post to follow, but I feel like I need to explain myself to justify why I actually think this could happen for me.
I lol'd at the first part of your post @Maximilian_Jenius. You guys are correct, you have to be invited I found out. I talked to a recruiter, told her my background, and that this is pretty much what interests me about ATP after having turned down ATP in the past. I don't take anything a recruiter for some pilot mill says to heart, but she said they rarely get applicants that have worked in as many different aviation positions as myself (highschool airline internship+scholarship, airline CS\Ramp\Ops\Cargo, Ramp Tower+trainer+senior controller title, Terminal management at a major airport, FBO work, published aviation photographer, flightsim content writer\software developer, FAA ATC poolie, monetized aviation youtube channel, ect) and I guess she said the "VERY" few (she emphasized that) people that got accepted to the F9 program were people who lived and breathed aviation before they ever entered the program and had some level of previous flying experience, though she did not elaborate if they had PPLs or not upon entry. She said they don't want a single person to fail that program, so they only sent highly capable pilots. According to her, a little prior flying experience goes a long with with opportunities offered at ATP as most people have none. She also said there is no written number of people per any amount of time to be selected, and no forecast on how many will be selected period, so it is more or less random for now, and she reminded me that the program was in it's "infancy". When she said all that about my background, given that she seemed pretty chill, I said "All that somewhere along the way I still lost my virginity" and she laughed really hard, so that's good.
Surprisingly, she told me MOST people who come to ATP have never worked in aviation at all. I find that pretty crazy, as yes, I've wanted to be a pilot my whole life, but that's because I am infatuated with aviation, so I've only ever worked in aviation accordingly, other than side gigs like Uber. I seriously don't get how people commit to $80k in debt for a career they aren't passionate about, but hey, I guess most college graduates aren't exactly ecstatic about the career they end up in, either.
But you're right, I am not a sycophant, at all. BUT, though I keep it real, I do generally try to make any place I'm at better and get in with the people running the place not to be an ass-kisser (you can totally say ass on here), but to learn everything I can, understand why things are the way they are, figure out who I can talk to and get results, who I shouldn't talk to about improvements or risk getting on their bad-side, ect. I tend to be very vocal about my goals, and people tend to end up helping me. Every job I've ever had, I'm always top of my class all through training and quickly climb the ladder. I was the first one done in a large room every time I took the AT-SAT ATC test, and passed it well-qualified (85%+) each time, and that is the hardest test I've ever taken. Hell, even driving Uber for a year I had damn near a 5-star rating which is very hard to get in the Bay Area, and I was just myself. I have also been invited to become involved in training at every job I've had, so I think I'll be a great CFI since I love to teach people and I tend to look at things differently than most people so I wouldn't just be reciting FARs like a parrot with a one-size-fits-all method. I'm no super human, but I am either 200% into what I'm doing, or you can't get me to care 1% and I loathe every second of it (I often fold laundry days after washing it for example). Luckily, I'm 200% into anything aviation, even the boring parts because I know the end goal, and usually I make friends, so I'm confident that I'd stand out and earn respect without being fake, over-the-top, and desperate. I've always also been super nerdy about Frontier, they've always been one of my favorite airlines, though I was pretty pissed to see their ULCC transition, I've come to accept it.
In most aspects of life, I actually think of myself as average or even below average. But when it comes to aviation, I see no reason why I can't accomplish what those other pilots did. For me, it is more a matter of will this program be terminated, or not. If I go to ATP and work my ass off but they never select another person for F9, then I'd rather not go. And the phone call with ATP only reinforced these worries. A huge gamble, very high risk, but a potentially very big reward. A tough one, especially with a plan already in action, people willing to go above and beyond to help me, an interest free loan set up, 240 hours, and a local CFI job most likely waiting for me at the school I'm furloughed from. I wish I knew about this sooner, I only found out about the F9 program this week. Now, not much time to decide given the entry criteria and the fact I'm 2 months in on Sheppard Air and have the written tests paid for and scheduled.
EDIT: Also, I see that though the price has gone up, ATP now only gets you 25 hours Multi unless you cough up extra dough. It used to be, what like 200ish multi? WTF happened to where the program cost goes up from previous years AND you get less multi? Da faq?
I think most people would kill to be that guy, LOL.
Last edited:
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Definitely a huge difference between networking and brown nosing. Tip: Don't be a brown noser.
Somethings to consider with ATP I heard at the Ogden location that you weren't allowed to work. You were also expected to be at the school for like six to eight hours, if you weren't flying, or say you have an 8 am flight. You had to be there till 4 or 5pm. Basically the end of the business day. If you had a 5pm flight, you were still expected to be there at 9 am. The expectation I was told was that when you're not flying, that you're studying. Alone or with a group. Also that you had to get permission to be able to leave early. If say you leave the airport immediately after your flight, don't come in on a weather day to mill around the office and study. Or on a day that you're not scheduled to fly. People are always looking and mentally observing an writing it down and you won't be a top tier sycophant to get rewarded with short cuts to the better jobs.
Lastly, and this is important. Do you have a co-signer? If you don't, don't even consider ATP. It won't happen. I had a 750 FICO and a mortgage in good standing when I filled out my credit app. You would think that would have made me stand out, right? Showing I was responsible and paid my bills on time. Nope. Denied without a co-signer.
Last edited:
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
I’m on the out by 45 plan
“By beetus or billions”!
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
As Max said, ATP basically brainwashes the instructors into being informants. And, yeah, you are expected to be at the training center 10-12 hours a day regardless of scheduled flying.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Previous world experience doesn't matter. Remember, at the end of the day it's just a job. Sure, it's a better job than many other jobs, but it sure as hell isn't a higher calling to anybody except the person that says it is.
I think you are right that most people would kill to be the guy who went from a Cessna to a Bus, until they have some experience and realize that's a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that the MCPL setup (as poor as its results are) is set up very differently than the US training pipeline is.
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Not always easy to find jobs in aviation. There's probably plenty of people who are "passionate" about it but either couldn't find aviation jobs or got jobs in other industries that paid better, before starting flight training.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
I have to wonder though, why is it OK to go from a Cessna to the right seat of an EMB-175 doing SFO-MSN and what not but not an A320? Other than the paycheck, aren't you more or less doing the same thing? More seats, bigger plane, but similar levels of automation and operation into the same airports on many of the same routes, except ETOPS. For the record, I don't think it's cool F9 is doing this with guys on the street with tons of TPIC, but I am just being objective.
I don't know though, I'd argue that previous experience DOES matter in the long run. I think I will be a way better captain someday having done all that stuff and understanding what goes on behind the scenes with ramp, CS, ops, ATC, ect. There is a reason frantic calls in the Ramp Tower when crap hit the fan were usually asking for me and not the manager, even if I was working traffic and not the ops stuff(or when I didn't even work there anymore LOL). That reason is because I did those other jobs, was super nerdy about flying\ATC, and because of that had an SA that let me very quickly come up with realistic solutions where as most other people, including management, only had their training and limited understanding of their jobs to rely on. I'd have to think being a captain will be very similar where I'll probably often find myself saying "I'm glad I (insert past experience here)" often. Plus the reason I'm always at the top of the class in training and usually end up being the best at my job isn't because I'm better than anyone. It is because it isn't just a job with me, aviation is my life, not just something I clock in and out of. I wholeheartedly want to get better and better at everything related to it. The best pilots I've flown with have all been guys who super into flying\airplanes and usually started as teens. People who loved it, and didn't just do it for a paycheck. The worst pilots I've flown with have all been ATP grads without an aviation background who had more time and ratings than me but sucked on the radio, clunked every landing, had bad SA in terminal environments, seemed nervous ect. I do not think pilots from those 2 groups will make equal captains one day.
Disagree strongly with this. I mean, if you work at a tiny outstation with a low turn over rate, OK, you're right. But even then, it is probably easy to get on at an FBO or something. But at hubs and larger airports, it is TOO easy to get hired in aviation, literally almost anyone able bodied person can be a ramper or get a CS job. Especially at 3rd party vendors like Swissport, McGee, ect. Have to start somewhere. If you're all about that life, flight bennies and working at the airport are very appealing.
Now, if you think aviation doesn't pay high enough, and go work elsewhere to make more money, that's another thing, but it's BS that people who WANT to work in aviation can't find a job if they tried and tried. Then again, I've never met someone as passionate as I am about aviation who didn't at least work in aviation for some period of time, even if they went off to higher paying careers outside of aviation, or otherwise got their PPL or something.
Last edited:
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
Thats funny because some of the best guys I've flown with have been ATP grads. Who the heck knows.