Frontier guys

[ChasenSFO]

Thats funny because some of the best guys I've flown with have been ATP grads. Who the heck knows.

Now, I didn't say ATP Grads, I've flown with a few AWESOME ATP grads, including guys here on JC. But all of those guys grew up wanting to be pilots. I am talking about the "Eh, why not" guys who just dump the money, learn what they learn, then don't really expand on it and putt around until 1500TT.

But I should be even more specific, all the ATP guys I had in mind did not get their CFI and were Commercial Multi only. Any CFI I've flown with from ATP was good if not great. It isn't like becoming a CFI is easy. Even more interesting, the majority of those guys I'm thinking of eventually decided to stop flying and got other careers even though they dumped all that money into ATP and even got hired at regionals for a while. Go figure. It's almost like the BS of reserve and commuting isn't worth it if you don't love the job and have a non-aviation degree that can make you good money. LOL.

 

[BobDDuck]

I have to wonder though, why is it OK to go from a Cessna to the right seat of an EMB-175 doing SFO-MSN and what not but not an A320? Other than the paycheck, aren't you more or less doing the same thing? More seats, bigger plane, but similar levels of automation and operation into the same airports on many of the same routes, except ETOPS. For the record, I don't think it's cool F9 is doing this with guys on the street with tons of TPIC, but I am just being objective.

Despite what some of the guys on the GuppieKillers at Republic told everybody for years, the 175 (and the CRJs) are not mainline jets. The amount of forgiveness for doing stupid things (aerodynamically) is much larger than an Airbus or Boeing.

That said, I think the complexity of the operation at a regional is much bigger than at a major carrier because the support network is much worse. You as a pilot end up having to handle a lot more of the operational stuff.

I don't know though, I'd argue that previous experience DOES matter in the long run. I think I will be a way better captain someday having done all that stuff and understanding what goes on behind the scenes with ramp, CS, ops, ATC, ect. There is a reason frantic calls in the Ramp Tower when crap hit the fan were usually asking for me and not the manager, even if I was working traffic and not the ops stuff(or when I didn't even work there anymore LOL). That reason is because I did those other jobs, was super nerdy about flying\ATC, and because of that had an SA that let me very quickly come up with realistic solutions where as most other people, including management, only had their training and limited understanding of their jobs to rely on. I'd have to think being a captain will be very similar where I'll probably often find myself saying "I'm glad I (insert past experience here)" often. Plus the reason I'm always at the top of the class in training and usually end up being the best at my job isn't because I'm better than anyone. It is because it isn't just a job with me, aviation is my life, not just something I clock in and out of. I wholeheartedly want to get better and better at everything related to it. The best pilots I've flown with have all been guys who super into flying\airplanes and usually started as teens. People who loved it, and didn't just do it for a paycheck. The worst pilots I've flown with have all been ATP grads without an aviation background who had more time and ratings than me but sucked on the radio, clunked every landing, had bad SA in terminal environments, seemed nervous ect. I do not think pilots from those 2 groups will make equal captains one day.

I can say with some certainty that, other than the fact that you'll know what to look for when they tell you to give way to the 737-700 and follow the 737-900 (and they won't ever say that), your previous aviation experience, and your #avnerdlyfe won't make you any better or any worse of an FO (let alone a captain who has just spent the last X years being an FO) than anybody else.

That's not a negative thing at all. Just saying that those aviation skills and knowledge you talked about aren't directly transferable. What is transferable though are the base underlying life skills (a desire to learn more, good memory retention, grasp of the big picture etc etc). That isn't unique to aviation jobs though. It's just unique to people who have those life skills.

 

[JordanD]

Previous world experience doesn't matter. Remember, at the end of the day it's just a job. Sure, it's a better job than many other jobs, but it sure as hell isn't a higher calling to anybody except the person that says it is.

I think you are right that most people would kill to be the guy who went from a Cessna to a Bus, until they have some experience and realize that's a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that the MCPL setup (as poor as its results are) is set up very differently than the US training pipeline is.

Hell I was a captain and when I went to the bus I felt like I was still hanging onto the tail of the thing for the first few months. I'm still not at the confidence level I was when I left after flying the same jet for almost 5 years, but that's down to how little I actually work too. I'd say especially going to the bus from a Cessna would be a nightmare.

 

[JordanD]

I have to wonder though, why is it OK to go from a Cessna to the right seat of an EMB-175 doing SFO-MSN and what not but not an A320?

Because (unpopular opinion) Sully was right.

 

[JordanD]

Despite what some of the guys on the GuppieKillers at Republic told everybody for years, the 175 (and the CRJs) are not mainline jets. The amount of forgiveness for doing stupid things (aerodynamically) is much larger than an Airbus or Boeing.

Having made the transition, how do you mean? Granted we did do some heavily loaded flights on the 175 where you'd have to be really careful with your margins energy wise, but the main thing I've really noticed is you really have to be careful with stuff like the speedbrakes a lot moreso on a Bus than on the 175 dealing with that much more mass. I always cringed when guys yanked the spoilers like they were starting a mower on the ERJ, but largely you were at weights when it didn't matter. Seems like 99% of the time if you did that on the bus you're probably going to have a bad time.

 

[BCTAv8r]

Somethings to consider with ATP I heard at the Ogden location that you weren't allowed to work. You were also expected to be at the school for like six to eight hours, if you weren't flying, or say you have an 8 am flight. You had to be there till 4 or 5pm. Basically the end of the business day. If you had a 5pm flight, you were still expected to be there at 9 am. The expectation I was told was that when you're not flying, that you're studying. Alone or with a group. Also that you had to get permission to be able to leave early. If say you leave the airport immediately after your flight, don't come in on a weather day to mill around the office and study. Or on a day that you're not scheduled to fly. People are always looking and mentally observing an writing it down and you won't be a top tier sycophant to get rewarded with short cuts to the better jobs.

When I went through ATP a few years ago they never forced you to come in and study, but it was strongly encouraged. I didn't work at all while going through the program and spent 5 days a week, all day, at the training center. I was fortunate to finish the program on time and with 0 checkride failures. I always noticed that the students that failed checkrides and blamed it on ATP were always the ones who barely came in and didn’t put in the time to study. ATP also had their sims available at no extra cost available at all times. As long as it wasn't being used, you could come in and spend hours on the thing.

I absolutely needed a co-signer though and it wasn't cheap. But it got me through.

 

[BobDDuck]

Having made the transition, how do you mean? Granted we did do some heavily loaded flights on the 175 where you'd have to be really careful with your margins energy wise, but the main thing I've really noticed is you really have to be careful with stuff like the speedbrakes a lot moreso on a Bus than on the 175 dealing with that much more mass. I always cringed when guys yanked the spoilers like they were starting a mower on the ERJ, but largely you were at weights when it didn't matter. Seems like 99% of the time if you did that on the bus you're probably going to have a bad time.

The examples you gave are good ones. Speed and energy management are very different in a bigger an heavier airplane. Full boards on an RJ give you full boards. Full boards on a bus give you a VLS that can be above your current speed. I'm having to relearn pretty much everything I figured out on the 321 now that I'm on the 330, and I'd guess the 747 guys are laughing at me in my light twin right now.

Also things like taxiway usage and wingtip clearance. Things like International Ops (the Caribbean and Canada don't count) where your divert scenarios change pretty drastically. Also things like proficiency. At a regional (during normal times) you are getting lots of landing reps in. I'm lucky now if i get 4 landings a month.

 

[JordanD]

The examples you gave are good ones. Speed and energy management are very different in a bigger an heavier airplane. Full boards on an RJ give you full boards. Full boards on a bus give you a VLS that can be above your current speed. I'm having to relearn pretty much everything I figured out on the 321 now that I'm on the 330, and I'd guess the 747 guys are laughing at me in my light twin right now.

Also things like taxiway usage and wingtip clearance. Things like International Ops (the Caribbean and Canada don't count) where your divert scenarios change pretty drastically. Also things like proficiency. At a regional (during normal times) you are getting lots of landing reps in. I'm lucky now if i get 4 landings a month.

That's one thing that still surprises me about the 320 is how much it WILL.NOT.SLOW.DOWN sometimes. Seemed like in an RJ once you "dropped the anchor" so to speak you pretty much didn't need boards anymore unless you were REALLY high/fast. Also with how little I get called I'm pretty routinely having to actually watch my landing currency. Never would have thought that'd be an issue flying domestic narrowbodies. I'm guessing the energy management learning curve got even steeper going from the 321 to the 330?

 

[BigZ]

That's one thing that still surprises me about the 320 is how much it WILL.NOT.SLOW.DOWN sometimes. Seemed like in an RJ once you "dropped the anchor" so to speak you pretty much didn't need boards anymore unless you were REALLY high/fast. Also with how little I get called I'm pretty routinely having to actually watch my landing currency. Never would have thought that'd be an issue flying domestic narrowbodies. I'm guessing the energy management learning curve got even steeper going from the 321 to the 330?

Going to any larger jet there is a learning curve. Citation/Phenom to CRJ700 was noticeable to me. Going CRJ700 to E175 had some differences too, mostly because the thing derates much more than CRJ and is 10k heavier. But guess what? There are plenty of guys for whom the E175 is a first jet and they don't know any different. In 2019 Atlas was giving heavy types to people that never flew above 10,000 before - and, with one notable exception where that wasn't the first jet, these things aren't falling out of the sky.

 

[JordanD]

too, mostly because the thing derates much more than CRJ and is 10k heavier.

Hah, yeah. I think that scared United 320 guy that sat in the jumpseat with us launch off 22L in ORD. Some of the rolls in SLC and DEN during the hot weather felt a little...excessive for a plane of that size too.

 

[BigZ]

Hah, yeah. I think that scared United 320 guy that sat in the jumpseat with us launch off 22L in ORD. Some of the rolls in SLC and DEN during the hot weather felt a little...excessive for a plane of that size too.

C700 could flex from 22L
175 is TO2 Max standard. Still struggles to make 3000 by 5.5 at anything above 76k or so doing that. TO1/CLB1 solves that though

PS I'm in EYW regularly. That's fun. Climb restricted flap 1 takeoffs are fun too.

 

[BobDDuck]

I'm guessing the energy management learning curve got even steeper going from the 321 to the 330?

A little bit For the most part we don't get slammed too badly though (except LA some times) though it's not too bad. Also spool management is a thing. With the NEO engines on the 321 it was pretty much power on demand.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Why would anyone want to work at Frontier? You'll never make 400k, fly a widebody, or true international, and there is no industry status in being a Frontier pilot.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The examples you gave are good ones. Speed and energy management are very different in a bigger an heavier airplane. Full boards on an RJ give you full boards. Full boards on a bus give you a VLS that can be above your current speed. I'm having to relearn pretty much everything I figured out on the 321 now that I'm on the 330, and I'd guess the 747 guys are laughing at me in my light twin right now.

Also things like taxiway usage and wingtip clearance. Things like International Ops (the Caribbean and Canada don't count) where your divert scenarios change pretty drastically. Also things like proficiency. At a regional (during normal times) you are getting lots of landing reps in. I'm lucky now if i get 4 landings a month.

I thought on the Bus full boards with the AP on was like half boards? Oh well, dumped knowledge from my brain since I'll never fly it again.

I gotta say, CRJ-200 to A320 was kinda challenging, but A320 to 737 seems to be great. Very similar size "feel" to the transition.

I'd be interested in your 321 to 330 transition in terms of how it feels, adaptation, etc. Was it the quick transition course or a full type rating thing (321 to 330)? I see you mentioned engine spool up is an issue. I wouldn't have guessed that, but makes total sense.

Congrats again! You gonna put in for the Dreamliner when it comes?

 

[BobDDuck]

I thought on the Bus full boards with the AP on was like half boards? Oh well, dumped knowledge from my brain since I'll never fly it again.

I gotta say, CRJ-200 to A320 was kinda challenging, but A320 to 737 seems to be great. Very similar size "feel" to the transition.

I'd be interested in your 321 to 330 transition in terms of how it feels, adaptation, etc. Was it the quick transition course or a full type rating thing (321 to 330)? I see you mentioned engine spool up is an issue. I wouldn't have guessed that, but makes total sense.

Congrats again! You gonna put in for the Dreamliner when it comes?

I have no idea what happens when you throw full boards out with or without the autopilot. I use it to get a desired airspeed/descent rate combo and don't worry about the particulars.

The Airbus Version (tm) of the 320 to 330 is (I think) 4 weeks. We only have a full course. @Derg went the other way at a more put together airline, so he may have done the 2 week required course. It's the same inside, with a few exceptions. It handles a bit heavier and the concern is more about pod strikes than tail strikes. It's get better wings and engines than the 321 so even at heavier weights you aren't slow climbing as much and most days, with the routes we fly, we can get right up to 41,000. Yah solar radiation! The one thing that trips me out still is that the max usable fuel load on the 330 is considerably more than the MTOW of the 321. Our 787s have been deferred until late next year and it is a very slow delivery schedule. I would guess that I won't have the seniority to hold the right seat for a while.

 

[Nark]

@Cherokee_Cruiser with the autopilot active, you only get up to 1/2 deflection of the spoilers on the 320. You get full spoilers on the 319 and 321. AP off, you get what you pull.
The flaps are different on the 321, flaps full, are less, which gives you a different landing attitude.

For the F9 dudes: why are you guys dropping the CFM’s in favor of P&W?

 

[ASpilot2be]

For the F9 dudes: why are you guys dropping the CFM’s in favor of P&W?

I have heard that we are extremely unhappy with CFM and the LEAP engines. They were having to get pulled off for inspections frequently.

 

[Box hauler]

The examples you gave are good ones. Speed and energy management are very different in a bigger an heavier airplane. Full boards on an RJ give you full boards. Full boards on a bus give you a VLS that can be above your current speed. I'm having to relearn pretty much everything I figured out on the 321 now that I'm on the 330, and I'd guess the 747 guys are laughing at me in my light twin right now.

Also things like taxiway usage and wingtip clearance. Things like International Ops (the Caribbean and Canada don't count) where your divert scenarios change pretty drastically. Also things like proficiency. At a regional (during normal times) you are getting lots of landing reps in. I'm lucky now if i get 4 landings a month.

IMO the 319 and 320 are fairly forgiving but in the 321, you better be way ahead of it all of the time.

 

[roundout]

why is it OK to go from a Cessna to the right seat of an EMB-175 doing SFO-MSN and what not but not an A320

Le Bus is a fantastic airplane, but a horrendous first jet. Like, dreadful. Very forgiving of laziness, and it even breeds laziness, but it is quite intolerant of novice. Not sure about the CRJ and its 180 knot Vref, weak engines, critical wing, but the Embraer products are far more tolerant of rookie mistakes and straight up lack of knowledge.

For the F9 dudes: why are you guys dropping the CFM’s in favor of P&W?

We all got together in /r/aviationcompanybets and decided it'd be worthwhile to ring up Pratt and Whitney stock and have to learn yet another set of limitations for the lulz.

Seriously though, ask management.

 

[jtrain609]

Y'all know third world pilots with almost no training successfully fly A320's and A330's every day, right?

I honestly think the biggest problem with the Airbus in the US is that it's TOO simple to operate, and instead of just letting Fifi do what she wants, we're constantly trying to intervene so we can do things our way.

Keep her managed at all times, never turn off the auto thrust, don't try to reinvent the wheel, and she does great.