Frontier 3506

At BlueJuice Factory, we had a crew tail strike a 321 in St. Lucia last year. It was the FOs first flight after just completing IOE so the Captain in is infinite wisdom allowed the FO to take the leg down to UVF. Anyone who has flown into there knows the winds be gusty. Not something that someone who has any bit of experience could not handle but I wouldn’t have it be a brand new FOs first landing. Anyway the approach was going fine until the last several hundred feet when the gusts hit. The airspeed dropped then they dropped and hit 1st at 2.2 Gs then bounced(it is very hard to get an Airbus to bounce) instead of going around the FO tried to salvage the landing by pulling back full aft(no more elevator authority). Then they hit hard again at 1.87 Gs and bounced again. Captain tried to take over and go around but the FO never released his side stick so they got “Dual input.” Why this is bad especially at this particular stage is a bit long to explain in systems talk but you are summing up two pull backs on the side stick. Captain applied TOGA and the plane went around but the tail struck the runway(there are pictures out there). Not sure how he got FO to give up control but he never pushed the red take over button. I’m not criticizing the crew because it can happen to the best of us. Recently finished recurrent and when they went over this scenario with the video, the safety guys who investigated were certain that this should have been a serious accident and that luck was on their side that day.
 
invadertim said:
Several years ago I had a gear disagree on the CRJ going into CVG late one evening. We got it a fair way out, so we did a go around and ran the QRH, which basically said cycle the gear. That time no issues, but I decided that if it’s down and ok I’m leaving it that way. We of course told tower why we went around, and declared the emergency for good measure. Tower really really wanted us to do a low pass, which I declined, several times, because: 1) it was dark and you couldn’t see anything anyhow, and 2) I was fairly confident that if the gear said it was down ok, it was. The landing was uneventful, the issue was a position switch getting glitchy as I recall.
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I’m not rightly sure how I got through the CRJ times without one, from all the yapping about it they did in initial.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's...not necessary for the emergency. All an even qualified observer is going to tell you is that the main or nose gear 'appear' down during a flyby. The issue isn't whether they're down, but down and locked, so the added low-level pass isn't really going to tell you much of use.

I have my doubts that anyone could have told whether a nose wheel and tyre was missing from this airplane at night during a flyby too.
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I just said all of that up above. :)
 
invadertim said:
Several years ago I had a gear disagree on the CRJ going into CVG late one evening. We got it a fair way out, so we did a go around and ran the QRH, which basically said cycle the gear. That time no issues, but I decided that if it’s down and ok I’m leaving it that way. We of course told tower why we went around, and declared the emergency for good measure. Tower really really wanted us to do a low pass, which I declined, several times, because: 1) it was dark and you couldn’t see anything anyhow, and 2) I was fairly confident that if the gear said it was down ok, it was. The landing was uneventful, the issue was a position switch getting glitchy as I recall.
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Depends on the aircraft, generally night would be hard for tower to tell anything. On one of my jets; there was a landing light on each gear strut, which would only illuminate with the landing light switch on, when the strut was over the center lock. However I couldn’t see the individual lights from the cockpit, just a general illumination out front when the landing lights were on, but not which ones. So in that case, it was useful for tower to take a look day or night when on couple mile final. For other aircraft, that may not be the case, and thus a night low pass may not net much.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
At BlueJuice Factory, we had a crew tail strike a 321 in St. Lucia last year. It was the FOs first flight after just completing IOE so the Captain in is infinite wisdom allowed the FO to take the leg down to UVF. Anyone who has flown into there knows the winds be gusty. Not something that someone who has any bit of experience could not handle but I wouldn’t have it be a brand new FOs first landing. Anyway the approach was going fine until the last several hundred feet when the gusts hit. The airspeed dropped then they dropped and hit 1st at 2.2 Gs then bounced(it is very hard to get an Airbus to bounce) instead of going around the FO tried to salvage the landing by pulling back full aft(no more elevator authority). Then they hit hard again at 1.87 Gs and bounced again. Captain tried to take over and go around but the FO never released his side stick so they got “Dual input.” Why this is bad especially at this particular stage is a bit long to explain in systems talk but you are summing up two pull backs on the side stick. Captain applied TOGA and the plane went around but the tail struck the runway(there are pictures out there). Not sure how he got FO to give up control but he never pushed the red take over button. I’m not criticizing the crew because it can happen to the best of us. Recently finished recurrent and when they went over this scenario with the video, the safety guys who investigated were certain that this should have been a serious accident and that luck was on their side that day.
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Was dual input the same thing the Air France A330 that went into the ocean off Brazil was facing as they were stalling out of the sky?
 
MikeD said:
Was dual input the same thing the Air France A330 that went into the ocean off Brazil was facing as they were stalling out of the sky?
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The FO kept overriding the Captain's override. Current Airbus guys correct me, it has been 10 years 4 type ratings ago. If you press the red button, it switches side stick priority. If you keep pressing and holding the button, it locks out the other stick.
 
ERfly said:
The FO kept overriding the Captain's override. Current Airbus guys correct me, it has been 10 years 4 type ratings ago. If you press the red button, it switches side stick priority. If you keep pressing and holding the button, it locks out the other stick.
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Just a curious question, as while im an Airbus guy, I’m not an Airbus airplane guy. Wasn’t sure if these were the same flight control logic in both cases. Interesting to hear.
 
MikeD said:
Just a curious question, as while im an Airbus guy, I’m not an Airbus airplane guy. Wasn’t sure if these were the same flight control logic in both cases. Interesting to hear.
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Systems-wise, the FBW systems are the same. It just depends on if the Sidestick Priority button is pressed or not as to how they behave.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
How do you brief a flare height? That’s gonna depend on stuff in the heat of the moment sometimes.
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Depends on the airplane. On the MD-11, the flare height changes based on GW, groundspeed, density altitude, CG, tailwind vs headwind, etc. It can very anywhere from 30-35 feet, to north of 60 feet.

I took the first 3 numbers of the GW and divided by 10. So if you were landing at 450k lbs, your flare height would be 45 feet. I'd brief that number and then I'd throw in, "If the nose isn't moving by 30 feet, send me around." That part of the brief was thrown in every time. With the momentum of the MD-11 on landing, if you haven't started your flare by then, it's too late.

Standing by for your contradiction...
 
ERfly said:
Depends on the airplane. On the MD-11, the flare height changes based on GW, groundspeed, density altitude, CG, tailwind vs headwind, etc. It can very anywhere from 30-35 feet, to north of 60 feet.

I took the first 3 numbers of the GW and divided by 10. So if you were landing at 450k lbs, your flare height would be 45 feet. I'd brief that number and then I'd throw in, "If the nose isn't moving by 30 feet, send me around." That part of the brief was thrown in every time. With the momentum of the MD-11 on landing, if you haven't started your flare by then, it's too late.

Standing by for your contradiction...
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Sheesh. Too much math :)

And @mikecweb likes this?
 
DE727UPS said:
It doesn't help when you have a fleet of 75's and 76's you trade off flying. The 757 wants to crash the nose gear after touchdown. Doesn't help that you're sitting on top of it. The 76 wants to raise the nose as the speedbrakes come up. For sure you have work to do after touchdown on the 75.
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I thought about the 75 when I read that FO’s stopped flying after touch down. Definitely a sure fire way to knock an inch or two off your spine if you don’t at least try to de rotate in the 75.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sheesh. Too much math :)

And @mikecweb likes this?
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Works good, lasts long time. The data backs up the program that makes it now safe to fly the MD11 when it very much was not the case in the past. It flies like every other airplane until it doesn't.
I mostly use @ERfly's math but also do a check at 100' to see the descent rate and adjust as necessary, half the VSI 10% of that number is a good flare height. As PM I'll share the vertical speed I see at 100' if it would require a different flare height than what was briefed. Our fleet is pretty bought in on it, I believe it's now coming to other fleets and I heard United is starting to implement the same program after their 767 landing incident(s).
 
mikecweb said:
Works good, lasts long time. The data backs up the program that makes it now safe to fly the MD11 when it very much was not the case in the past. It flies like every other airplane until it doesn't.
I mostly use @ERfly's math but also do a check at 100' to see the descent rate and adjust as necessary, half the VSI 10% of that number is a good flare height. As PM I'll share the vertical speed I see at 100' if it would require a different flare height than what was briefed. Our fleet is pretty bought in on it, I believe it's now coming to other fleets and I heard United is starting to implement the same program after their 767 landing incident(s).
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I forgot about the 100' check. Add it to the list of "Things I'll Relearn In the Coming Months". I know it's well-regarded in the MD, but it's mocked a lot in the 767. I agree that it's not as useful in that airplane (just doing some pilot • will work just fine). However, when I explain to people that never flew the MD why we do it, the answer I always get is, "Oh...well...that makes sense."
 
ERfly said:
I forgot about the 100' check. Add it to the list of "Things I'll Relearn In the Coming Months". I know it's well-regarded in the MD, but it's mocked a lot in the 767. I agree that it's not as useful in that airplane (just doing some pilot • will work just fine). However, when I explain to people that never flew the MD why we do it, the answer I always get is, "Oh...well...that makes sense."
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Don't tell them about the oven or the fact that the lav isn't in the cockpit.
 
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