Freelancing, in a sense

PoeMan said:
A place I use locally doesn't allow it but if the student is the renter (ie they are already a pilot, working on Inst, Comm or BFR, etc) then they simply do the FBO's checkout and rent the plane, you just fly with them (remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC, when the left seat is a student).
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Won't work in my neck of the woods, Bud - we usually ban people like that from ever renting with our organization (both the CFI and the renter).

Some might say I am going behind the FBOs back . . .
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. . . but the guy(s) feels that the FBO's instructors don't click with him and he feels that I do a good job.
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Hmmm . . .

3) The FBO's and my CFI insurance wouldn't cover an accident
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My flight school's insurance wouldn't cover ANYBODY in the above mentioned scenario. As soon as they find out that you've been giving instruction in the flight school's aircraft, it would pretty much be over. Been down this road already . . .
 
PoeMan said:
Its only unethical if the FBO strictly forbids it, can be by simply stating NO or in their rental agreement. A place I use locally doesn't allow it but if the student is the renter (ie they are already a pilot, working on Inst, Comm or BFR, etc) then they simply do the FBO's checkout and rent the plane, you just fly with them ..........
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Oh dear, PoeMan....

What happens at Checkride time when that student presents his logbook, filled out with the flying school's airplane idents, your CFI signatures, and time logged under "Dual Received"?

Or when your student schedules an aircraft for a checkride and the flying school wonders what checkride (s)he is taking; unaware of any training that had been taking place from their facility.

These occurences will be certain to raise the eyebrows of the examiner and/or flying school.

I would make sure your FBO agrees to what you're doing, or you could end up in some serious poop.
 
"What happens at Checkride time when that student presents his logbook, filled out with the flying school's airplane idents, your CFI signatures, and time logged under "Dual Received"?"

And this violates what FAR's that the examiner would be concerned with?

"when your student schedules an aircraft for a checkride and the flying school wonders what checkride (s)he is taking; unaware of any training that had been taking place from their facility"

Again....what FAR's have been violated? Does the FAA care?

"I would make sure your FBO agrees to what you're doing, or you could end up in some serious poop."

Serious poop. Now that one has me scared. If some guy who has his PPL wants to rent a plane and wants me to ride along and give him instruction, I have no problem with the insurance situation or with his relationship with the FBO. I'd do it in a heartbeat, have done it before, will do it again, and the FAA could care less, which is the way it should be.

You guys need to relax a bit....

By the way Dazzler. Meaning no disrespect but I find it interesting.

How did you go from the guy asking "is this considered unethical? Is it even allowed? What about insurance?" in the beggining of this thread to the guy who seems to have all the answers in your last post?
 
DE727UPS said:
".....If some guy who has his PPL wants to rent a plane and wants me to ride along and give him instruction, I have no problem with the insurance situation or with his relationship with the FBO. I'd do it in a heartbeat, have done it before, will do it again, and the FAA could care less, which is the way it should be.
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Don, can I assume that the FBO knew you were doing this and had no issues with it? If the FBO prohibits it, I just cannot see you doing it. The FAR's may not prohibit it, I don't know. What I do know is that what PoeMan stated in regards to his situation is, the FBO prohibits it. Yet he was still doing it by his own admission.

Bottom line (for me at least), if the FBO is o.k. with it, then fine. But if they prohibit it, then why would one do such a thing.
 
Don, I don't think anybody is arguing the legality of this. However, why wouldn't one respect the FBO/Flight School as a business, and the right of that business to choose who can instruct in it's aircraft?
 
"If the FBO prohibits it, I just cannot see you doing it"

HAHA....you don't know me too well. I'm sort of a rebel when it comes to stupid rules I don't agree with. In this case the PPL, personal friend of mine, who was paying the FBO to rent the plane, had no problem with it. If the guy paying for the plane has no problem with it then I don't either, heck. I'm just along for the ride and I wouldn't accept any compensation outside the occasional beer. The examiner, who does checkrides on the airport, with this school and free lancers, didn't seem to care. Why should he? No FAR's are violated and he gets his fee. No reason for him to care less.

"The The FAR's may not prohibit it, I don't know"

You should know. They don't.
 
"and the right of that business to choose who can instruct in it's aircraft"

What about the right of the renter, you know, the guy paying the bill, to use the aircraft as he see's LEGALLY fit.
 
DE727UPS said:
"and the right of that business to choose who can instruct in it's aircraft"

What about the right of the renter, you know, the guy paying the bill, to use the aircraft as he see's LEGALLY fit.
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Alright, tit for tat......

Sure the renter has a right to use the aircraft as he see's legally fit. But If he knowingly violates the rules of said business, then he could be, and rightfully so, prohibited from renting there again.

Yes, it may be perfectly legal, but......in the situation that PoeMan mentioned, (and the only one I'm referring to here) it was prohibited by the FBO, yet he chose to ignore that. Legal or not, that poses a problem for me.
 
"But If he knowingly violates the rules of said business, then he could be, and rightfully so, prohibited from renting there again"

In this case, said business was happy to get the money from the renter. I'm sure they knew what was going on. I mean, I was always walkin into the lobby with the guy and saying things like "great day to get some actual".
 
DE727UPS said:
What about the right of the renter, you know, the guy paying the bill, to use the aircraft as he see's LEGALLY fit.
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Being that it's the flight school's aircraft, I think they're the ones that set the rules.

If you rent a car in San Diego and the car rental company says that you can't drive to Mexico (which you can LEGALLY do), are they restricting your "rights"?
 
DE727UPS said:
"But If he knowingly violates the rules of said business, then he could be, and rightfully so, prohibited from renting there again"

In this case, said business was happy to get the money from the renter. I'm sure they knew what was going on. I mean, I was always walkin into the lobby with the guy and saying things like "great day to get some actual".
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Well there you have it ! It appears the FBO had no problem with it and if that's the case, then WooHoo....It's all good.
 
"If you rent a car in San Diego and the car rental company says that you can't drive to Mexico (which you can LEGALLY do), are they restricting your "rights"?"

Yeah..they are. And if I thought it was unreasonable, stupid, arbitrary, I thought I wouldn't get caught, and needed to go to Mexico...I'd drive the damn thing to Mexico.
 
DE727UPS said:
"If you rent a car in San Diego and the car rental company says that you can't drive to Mexico (which you can LEGALLY do), are they restricting your "rights"?"

Yeah..they are. And if I thought it was unreasonable, stupid, arbitrary, I thought I wouldn't get caught, and needed to go to Mexico...I'd drive the damn thing to Mexico.
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Fair enough! However, would you really be able to get upset if you got caught and they said, "You can't rent here anymore"?
 
No. I'd laugh at them, ask them why it mattered, since it was legal and all, and take my business next door. There is lots of competition in car rentals these days.
 
DE727UPS said:
No. I'd laugh at them, ask them why it mattered, since it was legal and all, and take my business next door.
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Well, that's exactly what alot of flight schools can do! There are lots of flight schools to rent from!:)

Again, I'm just wondering why the flight school has no rights?
 
DE727UPS said:
And I'm wondering why the renter has no rights?
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The renter has a right to operate under the rules of which he has agreed to by signing the papers when renting. If he willinginly violates those rules, then he has to face whatever consequences the FBO has set forth.
 
JEP said:
The renter has a right to operate under the rules of which he has agreed to by signing the papers when renting. If he willinginly violates those rules, then he has to face whatever consequences the FBO has set forth.
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On that, we agree perfectly!:)
 
DE727UPS said:
And I'm wondering why the renter has no rights?
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Because the renter signs a piece of paper that voluntarily gives up such rights. Whose fault is it for not reading the contract?

Honestly, with the market the way it is, I have a hard enough time keeping enough students to make a decent living. By undercutting me (which, whether or not you want to think of it that way, you ARE doing), you're taking food off of my plate. It's scabbing, plain and simple. How are you undercutting me, you ask? Well, as you said yourself, you're not accepting compensation... How is that any different than a PFJ/PFT operation for a first officer?

Don, I have a lot of respect for you so don't think I'm attacking you personally, but I just don't understand how you can be so adament about PFJ/PFT, then go ahead and take a student away from a hard working instructor.
 
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