Freelancing, in a sense

Chris_Ford said:
Because the renter signs a piece of paper that voluntarily gives up such rights. Whose fault is it for not reading the contract?
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Exactly.

By undercutting me (which, whether or not you want to think of it that way, you ARE doing), you're taking food off of my plate. It's scabbing, plain and simple. How are you undercutting me, you ask? Well, as you said yourself, you're not accepting compensation... How is that any different than a PFJ/PFT operation for a first officer?
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I disagree with this . . . I don't think he's saying that he wouldn't accept compensation. He's just not telling the FBO this. It's NOTHING like scabbing.

I support freelance flight instruction! I've done lots of it, and I still do lots of it! I just don't like the idea of lying to the flight school about it.
 
DE727UPS said:
HAHA....you don't know me too well. I'm sort of a rebel when it comes to stupid rules I don't agree with.
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Folks, that's pretty much the end of the discussion, isn't it?

Illegal, unethical, immoral? Doesn't matter. If I think it's stupid (loosely defined as not permitting something I decide I want to do) then I will disregard it, and come up with a bunch of self-serving justifications why it's okay.

You don't argue with that point of view. You accept it and simply stay out out of the way of people that have it.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Exactly.



I disagree with this . . . I don't think he's saying that he wouldn't accept compensation. He's just not telling the FBO this. It's NOTHING like scabbing.

I support freelance flight instruction! I've done lots of it, and I still do lots of it! I just don't like the idea of lying to the flight school about it.
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I've got nothing wrong with freelance instruction, when it's permitted... But when it's not, it, for all intents and purposes, is undercutting an employee who worked hard to get that job.

While we're at it, let's run some 135 cargo out of an FBO's rented airplane... Yeah, the rule says we can't, but it's a stupid rule.
 
DE727UPS said:
By the way Dazzler. Meaning no disrespect but I find it interesting.

How did you go from the guy asking "is this considered unethical? Is it even allowed? What about insurance?" in the beggining of this thread to the guy who seems to have all the answers in your last post?
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Good question!
Honestly, at the start of the thread, I didn't know. (Which is why I asked!)
But in the last week or so I've learnt a lot about how this all works, by asking around different FBOs.
I would never say I have all the answers though.
 
Chris_Ford said:
While we're at it, let's run some 135 cargo out of an FBO's rented airplane... Yeah, the rule says we can't, but it's a stupid rule.
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Reminds me of the AntiAuthority hazardous attitude.
Ok everybody, let's say the antidote together...."Follow the rules, they are usually right" :D
 
...

Wow
I could have never thought this thread would go this far (then again, I probably should have)...

Just want to say that I don't Instruct (for a rating) in those planes but I have done about a dozen BFRs. I would only see that as undercutting the FBO (and their instructors) if I was sitting outside their door asking guys to fly with me. I get my students through personal references. If they find me, I must be doing something right.

Remember though, we're not enemies, we're just competition. We all have to be friends and help one another out (or else we'd go nuts) but when it boils down to it, at that next interview; we're still competition.

As far as taking a student up into actual or on an IFR fltplan, yeah I would have to be PIC, you were right. I haven't thought through all the little parts yet (because I haven't had to) so you have a good point MidlifeFlyer.


Let me clarify, I think I shot myself in the foot with my last paragraph...
<<<"...Ask the FBO, some will allow a few freelancers and some won't...>>>

I have posed the question of doing BFRs to the FBO management (hypothetically and with them not knowing who I was), their response was what led me to do BFRs and be ready for Inst or more instruction. They said if the renter was checked out and had the proper insurance (ie just renters insurance, if they aren't a student they aren't covered by the FBO) then taking their own CFI up with them would be fine as long as the renter was PIC (not an exact quote but pretty close, it was a while ago.) I probably could have saved a lot of typing having that in there...

:sitaware:

 
"You don't argue with that point of view. You accept it and simply stay out out of the way of people that have it"

Fair enough, but using my personal judgement in rule interpretation has served me well in flying since 1978 and seen me through to a Boeing jets. I must be doing something right.

Feel free to stay out of my way, though, if it makes you happy.
 
"Reminds me of the AntiAuthority hazardous attitude.
Ok everybody, let's say the antidote together...."Follow the rules, they are usually right"

Isn't that from the FOI? Now there's another useless piece of work that should be ignored. Just like this new TSA security stuff for CFI's. I'm such a rebel.....
 
I'll try to give you advance warning next time I fly the 757 into DEN. That way you can stay out of my way.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Reminds me of the AntiAuthority hazardous attitude.
Ok everybody, let's say the antidote together...."Follow the rules, they are usually right"

Isn't that from the FOI?
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No, it's private pilot knowledge.

Disclaimer--I only posted this because I'm bored. Please don't throw any petty one-liners at me.
 
jrh said:
No, it's private pilot knowledge.

Disclaimer--I only posted this because I'm bored. Please don't throw any petty one-liners at me.
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So, you don't want to hear, "What's a pilot like you doing in a place like this?"
 
moxiepilot said:
So, you don't want to hear, "What's a pilot like you doing in a place like this?"
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Hahaha...no, I didn't really want to hear that. But thanks anyway.
 
"No, it's private pilot knowledge"

So, private pilots have to know that crap now? What's this world coming to....

AntiAuthority hazardous attitude? And it has an antidote. Dumbest damn psycobabble I've ever heard of.
 
DE727UPS said:
Dumbest damn psycobabble I've ever heard of.
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I'm a huge believer in human factors training, and there's really no other way to address human factors other than breaking them down into those cheezy sayings.

FWIW, that psycobabble has saved my butt more than once. There's been more than one occasion when I've thought twice about something I was doing because one of the FAA's hazardous attitudes popped into my mind. Sort of like how I'll hear myself say something over the intercom and have flashbacks to key phrases in CVR transcripts.

But of course, I'm also a strong believer in the importance of FOI material.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
I hate to say it, but you're a strong believer in something that was written around 1913.

Thorndike's work (the dude cited in the FOI) was considered history of psychology in the 1960's. I only know that because I was talking with my father about it one day (who is a psychologist) and he said "Thorndike? I wrote a paper about him in my history of psychology course during my undergraduate work."

The stuff in the FOI is seriously out dated and isn't considered relevant to learning theory. In fact it had already been tossed in the 60's. Couldn't tell you what is considered up to date, but it sure isn't the stuff in the FOI.

Just an FYI.
 
I don't know anything about Thorndike's work...but don't you think it's an overgeneralization to say that all of the FOI material is outdated and irrelevant?

When I think of FOI stuff, I'm thinking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, elements of a good criticism, instructor professionalism, the levels of learning, the laws of learning, how to design a lesson plan, etc. I can see all of that information applied in the best instructors I've flown with. I can also see a lack of it in the worst instructors I've flown with. I can even see it in myself, how it applies directly to the way that I learn.

I'd be interested to hear what has been disproven about all of that.

If the FOI is tossed, what do you propose should be used to guide CFI training instead?
 
jrh said:
I can see all of that information applied in the best instructors I've flown with. I can also see a lack of it in the worst instructors I've flown with. I can even see it in myself, how it applies directly to the way that I learn.
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The class that I learned the most, the fastest in, was taught by people using fear and accountability as encouragement for learning.

I believe that there are indeed times that you want to say, "Johnny, that was a wonderful effort, however, it wasn't good enough . . . ", and there are times when you want to say, "johnny, you know how to land a freaking airplane, so I don't know why in the &^$* you're not doing it right. Fix it NOW".

Hey, sometimes it works!
:)
 
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