Freelancing, in a sense

[Dazzler]

Does anybody do the following?

Rents an airplane from a flight school, and gives dual instruction in the aircraft and gets paid directly, without being an employee of the school? This would mean you wouldn't be able to solo any students, but you could do Flight Reviews for example.

Or is this considered unethical? Is it even allowed? What about insurance?

Thanks!

 

[triple7]

big no-no where I come from. When your student puts it in a ditch you have zero ground to stand on.

 

[Dazzler]

big no-no where I come from. When your student puts it in a ditch you have zero ground to stand on.

yeah, just spoke to someone about this.
It's a big no-no for really only one reason:

The Insurance Man

 

[Chris_Ford]

yeah, just spoke to someone about this.
It's a big no-no for really only one reason:

The Insurance Man

And the fact that I worked hard to get my instructing job and I'd hate to have someone waltz in and potentially steal one of my students. It's pretty close to scabbing, if you ask me.

 

[Dazzler]

And the fact that I worked hard to get my instructing job and I'd hate to have someone waltz in and potentially steal one of my students. It's pretty close to scabbing, if you ask me.

True. But I wasn't intending to suggest that. I was thinking more on the lines of the freelancing CFI providing their own students. The flight school would benefit from the aircraft rental cost.

Waiting for the day Bigey doesn't use the :rawk: icon in one of his posts...

Try this...
http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?p=295401#post295401

 

[Chris_Ford]

True. But I wasn't intending to suggest that. I was thinking more on the lines of the freelancing CFI providing their own students. The flight school would benefit from the aircraft rental cost.

Yeah but the fact of the matter is that there is 1 person who wants to learn to fly. If they're really motivated, they'd have no problem going to X school and having an instructor teach them there, rather than some guy they know. Essentially, you're taking food off of my plate. It's hard enough to get students without people doing shady under-the-table business like this.

Try this...
http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?p=295401#post295401

Yeah, I realize that. It's a joke because that kid seems like he's high on sugar every time he posts

 

[Theotokos]

Yes, it is unethical.

 

[stuckingfk]

Not unethical at all. It isn't stealing food off someone's plate. If someone goes out and tries to find people that learn how to fly, they deserve that business.

Besides, if you're good at what you do, customers will find you. Ask Lloyd!

 

[wheelsup]

True. But I wasn't intending to suggest that. I was thinking more on the lines of the freelancing CFI providing their own students. The flight school would benefit from the aircraft rental cost.

The problem is that the schools make much more $$ of their instructor fees than they ever will of their aircraft. I don't think the word "scab" applies, but it is unethical unless the school is founded on the freelance concept (which I think Llyod's is, if I'm not mistaken, they are all 1099 employees). But that's a different topic!

~wheelsup

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Ethics is in the mind of the beholder, but teaching out of an FBO's airplane without permission

(a) may take a student away from another CFI
(b) may exposes you to a lawsuit by the FBO
(c) probably places the renter who uses you in the position of violating the FBO's rules
(d) is likely to void the FBO's insurance in case of an accident.

I was thinking more on the lines of the freelancing CFI providing their own students. The flight school would benefit from the aircraft rental cost.

And if that's true, then the FBO allows it and there is no problem. And there are FBOs that allow =approved= indepnednent CFIs to teach in their airplanes.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Yes, it is unethical.

It's only unethical if the flight school doesn't allow it. If a flight school's individual policies don't prohibit such instruction, and and said flight school's insurance will cover this activity (or you're carrying enough insurance yourself to protect you AND a student), why not?

 

[Dazzler]

And there are FBOs that allow =approved= indepnednent CFIs to teach in their airplanes.

And I found one that does allow it, and they've accepted my application.

 

[Philip]

It's only unethical if the flight school doesn't allow it. If a flight school's individual policies don't prohibit such instruction, and and said flight school's insurance will cover this activity (or you're carrying enough insurance yourself to protect you AND a student), why not?

I agree.
and if they DO allow it get CFI insurance because their insurance likely doesn't cover joo.

 

[PoeMan]

Only sort of...

Its only unethical if the FBO strictly forbids it, can be by simply stating NO or in their rental agreement. A place I use locally doesn't allow it but if the student is the renter (ie they are already a pilot, working on Inst, Comm or BFR, etc) then they simply do the FBO's checkout and rent the plane, you just fly with them (remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC, when the left seat is a student). Some might say I am going behind the FBOs back but the guy(s) feels that the FBO's instructors don't click with him and he feels that I do a good job. That's why he has recommended me to his friends for BFRs. I could never instruct a primary student there and wouldn't for four (probably more) reasons..
1) Thats the job of the FBOs instructors (I don't go there to steal their students, I get my students through my own references.)
2) I would never be able to solo them (what a waste of the student's time)
3) The FBO's and my CFI insurance wouldn't cover an accident
4) Thats where I draw the line...

I think stuckingfk is exactly right, if you're good at what you do; people will find you and then you have to find the plane. Sometimes the guys at the FBO aren't the most "personable", maybe the customers love the FBO but none of the instructors click with them, thats when freelancers get work.
"Besides, if you're good at what you do, customers will find you..."


The easy answer, if you don't find something that forbids it... Ask the FBO, some will allow a few freelancers and some won't. Some might say, "let us have your resume and we'll put you on insurance but not as an employee"; the worst they can say is NO. But if they do say NO, respect it and don't go behind their backs (that's when you would be a scab).

:sitaware:

 

[DE727UPS]

"remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC"

I would say a CFI is a pilot for hire if he's accepting compensation, isn't that how the FAA looks at it?

Not that I disagree with anything else you said.

 

[Malko]

Its only unethical if the FBO strictly forbids it, can be by simply stating NO or in their rental agreement. A place I use locally doesn't allow it but if the student is the renter (ie they are already a pilot, working on Inst, Comm or BFR, etc) then they simply do the FBO's checkout and rent the plane, you just fly with them (remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC, when the left seat is a student). Some might say I am going behind the FBOs back but the guy(s) feels that the FBO's instructors don't click with him and he feels that I do a good job. That's why he has recommended me to his friends for BFRs. I could never instruct a primary student there and wouldn't for four (probably more) reasons..
1) Thats the job of the FBOs instructors (I don't go there to steal their students, I get my students through my own references.)
2) I would never be able to solo them (what a waste of the student's time)
3) The FBO's and my CFI insurance wouldn't cover an accident
4) Thats where I draw the line...

........But if they do say NO, respect it and don't go behind their backs (that's when you would be a scab).

:sitaware:

How does it matter wheter or not it is a primary student? I would say that you are going behind the FBO's back if you are instructing a student whether it is for the IR/Commercial, etc.....You are still giving instruction in an aircraft in which you are not allowed to. What would happen if something does happen in hte form of an accident, ex...taxiway light, hard landing, etc.... You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be trouble for both you and your student.

How do you not see what you are doing as unethical? The FBO does not allow it (by your own admission), but yet you are giving instruction in the A/C. :banghead: You better hope nothing ever happens.

 

[DE727UPS]

"How do you not see what you are doing as unethical?"

I don't think it's unethical if it doesn't violate the FBO's policies. The way to approach it as a free lancer is to talk to the FBO management and work something out. FBO wins because he gets a new customer/renter.

It's been my experience that some FBO CFI's sit around and wait for students to come to them. Then whine about free lancers. Free lancers go out and find students on their own and just need an airplane to use.

Let me pose this question. Say free lance CFI has his own airplane. Is it still unethical for him to work with students that might have gone to your flight school?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

"remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC"

I would say a CFI is a pilot for hire if he's accepting compensation, isn't that how the FAA looks at it?

Actually, no. But PoeMan isn't correct either. A CFI who is only giving instruction is never a "pilot for hire" from the FAA's standpoint. Under FAA policy, a CFI is paid for being a teacher, not for being a pilot. That's why a CFI, unlike a pilot exercising commercial privileges, only needs a third class medical (when he needs one at all).

Besides,

1. How do you teach instruments without filing an IFR flight plan or going into actual, in which cases the CFI has to be PIC (unless there's a third IFR-rated pilot aboard)

2. Whether the FAA considers the pilot being for hire has nothing to do with the issue anyway. Whether the instructor is going behind the FBO's back, or is messing with their insurance coverage, or inducing the other pilot to breach his rental agreement (along with dubious self-justification) are issues the FAA doesn't deal with until you go for your ATP and "moral character" becomes one of the requirements.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Let me pose this question. Say free lance CFI has his own airplane. Is it still unethical for him to work with students that might have gone to your flight school?

Nope. Then you are the FBO's legitimate competitor. You are paying for maintenance and insurance and taking the risks of loss, instead of running your own business at the FBO's expense.

 

[Malko]

"How do you not see what you are doing as unethical?"

I don't think it's unethical if it doesn't violate the FBO's policies. The way to approach it as a free lancer is to talk to the FBO management and work something out. FBO wins because he gets a new customer/renter.
..........

No doubt. I would see no problem if the FBO allowed it. Just reading his original statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoeMan
Its only unethical if the FBO strictly forbids it, can be by simply stating NO or in their rental agreement. A place I use locally doesn't allow it but if the student is the renter (ie they are already a pilot, working on Inst, Comm or BFR, etc) then they simply do the FBO's checkout and rent the plane, you just fly with them (remember; a CFI is only a pilot for hire when he is the acting PIC, when the left seat is a student). Some might say I am going behind the FBOs back but the guy(s) feels that the FBO's instructors don't click with him and he feels that I do a good job.


The fbo doesn't allow it and that is where I would take issue.

Let me pose this question. Say free lance CFI has his own airplane. Is it still unethical for him to work with students that might have gone to your flight school?

Not at all. If the CFI has his own plane and the student chose to use him then thats that. I think the issue is a CFI instructing in a plane rented from an FBO where said CFI is not employed. Especially if said CFI knows that the FBO does not allow it.