Snickersnwa
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing your perspective/experience... interesting to see it from a military POV
forced landing
- Thread starter atcbrownie
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Thank you for sharing your perspective/experience... interesting to see it from a military POV
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
i agree.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
hell i dunno. what would YOU do if all a sudden it got worse and worse, couldnt contact anyone, couldnt see anything, no radar, no XM, no nothin...
id probably turn a 180 and go until i could see something or call someone on the radio. im not gonna keep flying into oblivion/my doom.
is that such a hard call??
Snickersnwa
Well-Known Member
Well, it's tough to talk "if's and buts" and not in specific...
In that case, the answer is pretty obvious...
I'm talkin about this occuring at a point where you're not yet in a dangerous spot. You're just past STC from MSP enroute to GFK (IFR in solid IMC) and a "pop-up" (read: not forecasted) storm is brewin just West of Fargo (lookin bad on radar and moving East)
The SOF, having the ability to see you with the ADSB, or knowing when you departed MSP peggs you to arrive in that spot where this weather is going to be. I'm just sayin that it might be nice to get a "heads up" on it.
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
A heads-up is nice for sure.
Well the point he is making is that the help you cna recieve at least gives you a out. While some people have pointed out that the SOF has no legal athority in your decision making he does however take partial responsibility in the aircraft. SOF stands for Supervision Of Flight or in other words Safety Of Flight. While the PIC in any facet of aviation will always have the final word because we the pilot are in the action while others sit at a office watching a screen. A SOF is trying to prevent problems and or costly mistakes. I too fly alone with no one watching my back as I am a flight instructor. For those who know me or who have read my posts I do fly for a airline. In our contract you are still allowed to be a flight instructor and not violate the contract or company SOP. I fly in people's personally owned aircraft and give them instruction and you know what if I #### up the I either die or the feds will give me hell. I want niether so I always make sure I make the most conservative approach and that I have an out since I do not have the safety net of a dispatcher or SOF watching me. I can tell you though ,you the PIC, when you are alone have to do just that more because weather is key because if your boss says you need to be in DEN tonight and you are flying a 172 and they are forecasting icing all the way along your route with a strong low pressure system you may not be able to make since weather affects you. While if you are flying a King Air then it doesnt affect you as much because your aircraft is designed to do work in "crap" weather.
Jeremy you can say all you want about how you know what the real world is like but come talk to me when you are flying a aircraft through a line of level 6 thunderstorms with no FMS, WX radar, and no APU to power up you anti ice system to the maximum level. All the while you are trying to find a hole in a line that is about 350 miles wide and you can not simply just turn back because if you do you lose your job and your passengers will yell at you and if you do punch through the passenger goes through a intense ride and makes for a good beer story. Guess who is a major help, Dispatch, ATC, other pilots, and your attitude. Because the situation is serious but its not impossible to do, and legally you are good to go but its the nerve and good temperment of your mind that makes you deal with this crap and not dispatch or some SOF and while you have all of that on your mind you are missing out on your own twin daughters first steps and words so that you can put food on the table and make sure they have a roof over there heads. Thats tough. Anybody can fly a airplane cause its a repetition of learned ideas and physical movments. It takes a real good tough pilot to do that and balance his family matters and personal affairs. That is the real world, being young and single as a pilot is easy, being a married man with a wife and two kids and raising them all the same while on the job that is tough. You come talk to me when you get to that point in your life and tell me how easy it was for you. A good pilot shows good judgement and decision making not on what he was taught but rather what he has learned, he also needs to keep a open mind and sadly this generation of pilots dont have a open mind.
UND does a good job of teaching the foundation of flying, the learning happens when you apply yourself and to be honest not very many people apply themselves much anymore. I may not be the smartest pilot around but I do know what is a good idea and a not so good idea and bitching about the SOF who rarely calls ATC to relay a message is ludaicris. As one person said if they didnt tell you about nasty weather and someone becomes a coffin stuffer alot of people on the UND forum would berate the school for not doing enough. So what if the SOF called a plane to tell them hey try to divert to AXN to let some weather pass, maybe if the SOF had known that a flock of geese were in the area of St Cloud and Little Falls last october and didnt tell Annette and Adam of the potential hazard? If he had known and told them maybe my two best friends would be alive today? Maybe my kids godmother would be here playing with my kids instead of my wife and I have to pull up pictures of her to show my kids and we both cry because of a lost friend or how when I talk to there parents the sorrow i feel over the phone. So maybe next time the SOF calls you up over ATC or cancels flying, think about it for a moment, maybe they dont want you to make the final flight yet, maybe they are just wanting to make sure you are able to be here on terrafirma on your own two feet and not six feet under, the same applys for dispatch except sometimes they lag a little bit on the notice.(note: the SOF nor did anyone know of the geese flying that night that lost my two very dear friends but instead was pulling a what if they did know, RIP nets and adam many a blue skies for you)
And I am spent, let the crap of me begin.
-Farva
Jeremy you can say all you want about how you know what the real world is like but come talk to me when you are flying a aircraft through a line of level 6 thunderstorms with no FMS, WX radar, and no APU to power up you anti ice system to the maximum level. All the while you are trying to find a hole in a line that is about 350 miles wide and you can not simply just turn back because if you do you lose your job and your passengers will yell at you and if you do punch through the passenger goes through a intense ride and makes for a good beer story. Guess who is a major help, Dispatch, ATC, other pilots, and your attitude. Because the situation is serious but its not impossible to do, and legally you are good to go but its the nerve and good temperment of your mind that makes you deal with this crap and not dispatch or some SOF and while you have all of that on your mind you are missing out on your own twin daughters first steps and words so that you can put food on the table and make sure they have a roof over there heads. Thats tough. Anybody can fly a airplane cause its a repetition of learned ideas and physical movments. It takes a real good tough pilot to do that and balance his family matters and personal affairs. That is the real world, being young and single as a pilot is easy, being a married man with a wife and two kids and raising them all the same while on the job that is tough. You come talk to me when you get to that point in your life and tell me how easy it was for you. A good pilot shows good judgement and decision making not on what he was taught but rather what he has learned, he also needs to keep a open mind and sadly this generation of pilots dont have a open mind.
UND does a good job of teaching the foundation of flying, the learning happens when you apply yourself and to be honest not very many people apply themselves much anymore. I may not be the smartest pilot around but I do know what is a good idea and a not so good idea and bitching about the SOF who rarely calls ATC to relay a message is ludaicris. As one person said if they didnt tell you about nasty weather and someone becomes a coffin stuffer alot of people on the UND forum would berate the school for not doing enough. So what if the SOF called a plane to tell them hey try to divert to AXN to let some weather pass, maybe if the SOF had known that a flock of geese were in the area of St Cloud and Little Falls last october and didnt tell Annette and Adam of the potential hazard? If he had known and told them maybe my two best friends would be alive today? Maybe my kids godmother would be here playing with my kids instead of my wife and I have to pull up pictures of her to show my kids and we both cry because of a lost friend or how when I talk to there parents the sorrow i feel over the phone. So maybe next time the SOF calls you up over ATC or cancels flying, think about it for a moment, maybe they dont want you to make the final flight yet, maybe they are just wanting to make sure you are able to be here on terrafirma on your own two feet and not six feet under, the same applys for dispatch except sometimes they lag a little bit on the notice.(note: the SOF nor did anyone know of the geese flying that night that lost my two very dear friends but instead was pulling a what if they did know, RIP nets and adam many a blue skies for you)
And I am spent, let the crap of me begin.
-Farva
LOGS
Well-Known Member
^^Very true, part of being a competent pilot is using all available means to make the best decision possible at the time. My major gripe is that this things and other common UND practices are taking the "decision making" part out of learning to be a pilot. You're going to make mistakes as a pilot, no matter your experience and UND is taking away those little ones that we all learn from out. You're not always gonna have a SOF, dispatch, ATC to tell you what to do, so then what are these pilots that have had that throughout their entire training, holding their hand and making their decisions for them, gonna do?
=Jason-
=Jason-
well hopefully your training, knowledge, and Flight Papers(POH,POM,Weather Brief, Maps, etc.) will kick in and you should follow on the decision you are given by that but in the words of the USMC, " Learn, Improvise, and Adapt to your situation, its either that or be a coward and USMC hates cowards. Semper Fi".
UND certainly can always improve their training curriculum but they dont always take the decision out of the students hands. The problem is the student doesnt take the situation or flight training seriously enough to think about what could happen and I have many a times let the students go to the edge to learn what happens to poor planning and poor ADM. I know as the instructor I get a kick watching them freak out as we go outside there personal limitations. All I say is what do we do next? Should we contact someone or Land somewhere? I know that once we get to clear skies again or away from the thick soup that I will discuss with the student on what they need to do as well as have a throuogh breifing after we land on what to do next time so that they dont go into a bad situation.
But any instructor will do that and I know some at UND who remain to do that and there are people starting to climb into the ranks to hopefully discuss these options with our future instructors. The problem is that the students feel they are owed something rather than earn it. If we dont go up for a valid reason instead of talking about why we didnt go up they get into a hissy fit call mom or dad or a course manager and make the instructor pay for the students poor planning. Even after some students went outside there comfort zone they still did not care to prepare for flying wether it be weather or flight planning. They still didnt care because all that matter was flying a plane to just fly rather than learn and maybe get some decision making skills.
UND certainly can always improve their training curriculum but they dont always take the decision out of the students hands. The problem is the student doesnt take the situation or flight training seriously enough to think about what could happen and I have many a times let the students go to the edge to learn what happens to poor planning and poor ADM. I know as the instructor I get a kick watching them freak out as we go outside there personal limitations. All I say is what do we do next? Should we contact someone or Land somewhere? I know that once we get to clear skies again or away from the thick soup that I will discuss with the student on what they need to do as well as have a throuogh breifing after we land on what to do next time so that they dont go into a bad situation.
But any instructor will do that and I know some at UND who remain to do that and there are people starting to climb into the ranks to hopefully discuss these options with our future instructors. The problem is that the students feel they are owed something rather than earn it. If we dont go up for a valid reason instead of talking about why we didnt go up they get into a hissy fit call mom or dad or a course manager and make the instructor pay for the students poor planning. Even after some students went outside there comfort zone they still did not care to prepare for flying wether it be weather or flight planning. They still didnt care because all that matter was flying a plane to just fly rather than learn and maybe get some decision making skills.
Dj To Rule
New Member
Haha, I remember once my instructor asked if we should go. As much as the sky looked clear straight above, the horizon was hazy, specially to the west. I told him NO (specially after checking last minute metars from RDR etc.), but he insisted on the XC, we went and.. viola.. IFR on a VFR flight in minutes; we popped into that sneaky haze unexpectedly and had to turn around with vectors.. it was a waste of $$ but worth the experience (at least for my inst. too)
Weather is extremely tricky, sometimes you may not even physically see what you're going into.
Sidenote: There was no SOF to help which was good. It's intensity, one of the principles of learning. However since the weather was sharply detoriating we informed and adviced SOF to at least inform others.
My arguement with UND's SOF would be with some frustrated #$*^ that have sat there over the times. Nonetheless I'm not bashing on all of SOF, there were brilliant individuals who treated their job and other's with respect and professionalism.
Dj To Rule
New Member
To an extent I hope.. He/she doesn't own one's life which is more precious than a silly airplane (is the arguement). However he/she should and would be there to help and work as a team, but it all boils down to the person.
There have been accidents cause a pilot didn't use his own sound judgement and listened to/ or had misscommunication with someone at 0knots and 1g.
I'd say be the safest decision made. Wether it's a collaborative decision or PIC's say.
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