forced landing

atcbrownie

New Member
So last night I was working approach and talking to su31 (i believe that was the callsign) when the thunderstorms rolled in. The SOF called and said that we needed to divert him to GAF for a full stop landing. My question is when I left at midnight the plane still had not taken off from GAF to return to GFK. What do the pilots do when forced to land at another airport like GAF where there is nothing to do in that town? Does UND send up a van to pick them up or do they have to wait out the storm? Just curious because the weather was crappy for quite a while last night.

AW
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
i had a van dispatched to pick me up in hillsboro once after a landing in an arrow and the engine refused to start up again.

was a boring 2 hour wait.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
oh and my other question.... WHY DID UND MAKE THE DIVERSION DECISION FOR THE PILOT!!!! the PIC should, and MUST LEARN TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.

UND, you just helped this pilot learn NOTHING and potentially endanger them in the future when they are incapable of making a decision about weather and diversion on their own.

if UND is sending out pilots who they do not feel are competent to make safe decisions...THEY SHOULDNT BE SENDING THE PILOTS OUT TO FLY BY THEMSELVES.

i hope every day that something terrible doesnt happen out there with you guys who are still there....
 

ProudPilot

Aeronautics Geek
We go a pick them up, then we send flight instructors out to pick up the plane. We've had a number of times due to maintenance/weather/flight restrictions that pilots have had to stop at an airport. We'll get a plane out to pick them up if we can, if we can't, we get a van or a car to pick them up. If it's really bad, we will pay for them to stay someplace, ex, maintenance problem in DLH, overnight fix, overnight stay.

However, usually the pilot will pay their own way if they get stuck, just a part of aviation (weather, pilot choice, etc).
 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
It also floored me that the SOF made the divert decision. Not knowing all of the factors involved, I won't pass judgment on this specific case, but there's no way I'd blindly do what the SOF told approach to make me do. Can they even legally do this? I thought only the PIC could modify a flight plan and that only the flight crew could request a divert. At any rate, if it's looking like I can't make my destination airport, I'll be using all available resources to develop the best divert plan for me, not the cheapest option for UND. I'll consult with FSS, flightwatch, and approach, and then I'll TELL the SOF what I'm doing if they have no additional information for me. It's my butt in the left seat that'll get violated, or worse, killed, so I'm going to make the decision that results in the least danger to me.
 

atcbrownie

New Member
I thought it was strange also. I have had the SOF tell us to tell all UND RTB but never realy to land somewhere else. Also the aircraft flight plan was from DVL to GAF to GFK so they were in holding at nalco when we got the call that they needed to stop at GAF. We did tell the pilot to call the sof to get details before we cleared them for the approach.

AW
 

juxtapilot

Snowflake
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought it was dumb UND made the pilot divert.

I've actually heard that UND is developing a system which will require autopilot's to be installed in all the aircraft, but they won't be able to be used by a pilot. At any time the SOF can select an aircraft and have it brought home safely through an automated system. This will be great because students won't ever need to make any decisions on their own.

I once got stuck in Fargo. There was a snowstorm and I tried flying around it, but couldn't find a hole in it... So I just flew back to Fargo, landed and rode back to GFK with an instructor who was in the Fargo seeing a movie or something...
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
I've actually heard that UND is developing a system which will require autopilot's to be installed in all the aircraft, but they won't be able to be used by a pilot. At any time the SOF can select an aircraft and have it brought home safely through an automated system.
:D
 

Dj To Rule

New Member
I've actually heard that UND is developing a system which will require autopilot's to be installed in all the aircraft, but they won't be able to be used by a pilot. At any time the SOF can select an aircraft and have it brought home safely through an automated system.
LMAO

any resemblance?
 

av8or91

Well-Known Member
Had something similar happen to me over the summer coming back from MSP. We were flying around some weather on one of the IFR x/c for 325 and suddenly center tells us that the SOF wants us to land in AXN so they could advise us of some weather. Talk about a big waste of time. We had a good idea of what we were flying through ATC was doing a nice job vectoring us around it and we in touch with flight watch as well. This was by far the best experience I have had UND thus far. Here is the actual flight path from flightaware.com
 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
The SOF wanted you to land so they could advise you of some weather? What's flightwatch for, then?...
 

av8or91

Well-Known Member
Yes the controllers words were " Sioux 92....uhhh.. company wants you to land in Alexandria to uhh.... advise you of weather on your route." Controller was keeping us away form the heavy stuff and we were also talking to flight watch so yea, I really was in the left seat of this thing

 

juxtapilot

Snowflake
Yes the controllers words were " Sioux 92....uhhh.. company wants you to land in Alexandria to uhh.... advise you of weather on your route." Controller was keeping us away form the heavy stuff and we were also talking to flight watch so yea, I really was in the left seat of this thing

If that would have happened to me, words can't describe how angry I'd be with UND... I gave the SOF a tough time for weathering my flight because of rain... I can only imagine my reaction to this diversion.
 

LOGS

Well-Known Member
oh and my other question.... WHY DID UND MAKE THE DIVERSION DECISION FOR THE PILOT!!!! the PIC should, and MUST LEARN TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.

UND, you just helped this pilot learn NOTHING and potentially endanger them in the future when they are incapable of making a decision about weather and diversion on their own.

if UND is sending out pilots who they do not feel are competent to make safe decisions...THEY SHOULDNT BE SENDING THE PILOTS OUT TO FLY BY THEMSELVES.

i hope every day that something terrible doesnt happen out there with you guys who are still there....
Exactly I'd tell the SOF to piss off, aparently PIC decision doesn't exist there anymore. Maybe my views are why I didn't last there very long as a CFI....lol.

=Jason-
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
If that would have happened to me, words can't describe how angry I'd be with UND... I gave the SOF a tough time for weathering my flight because of rain... I can only imagine my reaction to this diversion.

LOL WHAT??? weathered because of RAIN???/

bwahahahahah UND, you fail.
 

Snickersnwa

Well-Known Member

Ok folks, I've bit my tongue on this thread and tried not to post on it. I'm going to try to offer up a different perspective on this.

First, was everyone at the end of the day able to rest their head on their pillow and go to sleep? That's all that matters. At the end of the day folks were able to return home safe.

Second, you're not flying your "own" airplane. Who's airplane is it?

If UND asked these crews to divert so that they could communicate with them, that doesn't take out all PIC responsibility/decision making. In these cases where there's weather as a concern, you should constantly be evaluating your situation and figuring out an "out" should the weather not cooperate anyways. If a message gets relayed like this to divert and call, maybe they saw something that you weren't able to see/know. Either way, you were still making decisions and thinking about your flight as PIC.

I'll tell ya what... the airline that I was working at would via ACARS (text messaging, basically) have dispatch send updates to the crew, suggest/change alternates, etc. This method of communicating back and forth is not available on UND's airplanes (for now), so in certain circumstances they've decided to relay this information via ATC.

Again, at the end of the day folks are able to return home safe. And, that’s all that really matters

Disclaimer: This is my opinion only, and not necessarily that of UND’s

 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
I understand that the plane belongs to UND, it's UND making the divert call for the PIC that gets under my skin. In a scenario like this, I'd definitely be talking with SOF over the radio to get any information that they have to offer, but it lies in the PIC's hands to make the final divert decision. Honestly, though, I can't think of any information relevant to my divert decision that SOF has that I couldn't get from FSS except for PIREPS from UND pilots (who should be giving them to FSS, but never do...). The folks on the ground have no idea what the actual conditions are that I'm experiencing, and therefore they should not be making my divert decision for me. They can advise me, but the final authority is the PIC.
 

Farva

New Member
Ok folks, I've bit my tongue on this thread and tried not to post on it. I'm going to try to offer up a different perspective on this.

First, was everyone at the end of the day able to rest their head on their pillow and go to sleep? That's all that matters. At the end of the day folks were able to return home safe.

Second, you're not flying your "own" airplane. Who's airplane is it?

If UND asked these crews to divert so that they could communicate with them, that doesn't take out all PIC responsibility/decision making. In these cases where there's weather as a concern, you should constantly be evaluating your situation and figuring out an "out" should the weather not cooperate anyways. If a message gets relayed like this to divert and call, maybe they saw something that you weren't able to see/know. Either way, you were still making decisions and thinking about your flight as PIC.

I'll tell ya what... the airline that I was working at would via ACARS (text messaging, basically) have dispatch send updates to the crew, suggest/change alternates, etc. This method of communicating back and forth is not available on UND's airplanes (for now), so in certain circumstances they've decided to relay this information via ATC.

Again, at the end of the day folks are able to return home safe. And, that’s all that really matters

Disclaimer: This is my opinion only, and not necessarily that of UND’s

Here here. Folks this is words of wisdom and experience and well I can tell you that in the airline I fly we get messages over ACARS and the radio about our dispatcher wanting us to fly another route. If you people think the SOF is pulling you chain and making your life miserable then maybe you should leave the industry. you are always gonna be somebody pawn in this industry and well quite frankly safety is key over flying into a level 5 thunderstorm or rain. And for the person who said SOF wouldnt let you fly into the rain maybe it was because of icing concerns. remember your airplane has to be certified into known icing conditions to fly into icing. And well when I was a instructor at UND students in 222 never check weather and didnt even know what known icing conditions where and this was at Stage 53!! ( i picked this student up for his Lesson 52 and then was to put him in for stage 53, stated to say it was not my instructing that made this student a complete idiot and well Snickers has heard about this wonderful pilot who was put up for his stage 53.) Rock on snickers teach these punks some flying cause they clearly are ignorant to the world outside of there minds.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
Here here. Folks this is words of wisdom and experience and well I can tell you that in the airline I fly we get messages over ACARS and the radio about our dispatcher wanting us to fly another route. If you people think the SOF is pulling you chain and making your life miserable then maybe you should leave the industry. you are always gonna be somebody pawn in this industry and well quite frankly safety is key over flying into a level 5 thunderstorm or rain. And for the person who said SOF wouldnt let you fly into the rain maybe it was because of icing concerns. remember your airplane has to be certified into known icing conditions to fly into icing. And well when I was a instructor at UND students in 222 never check weather and didnt even know what known icing conditions where and this was at Stage 53!! ( i picked this student up for his Lesson 52 and then was to put him in for stage 53, stated to say it was not my instructing that made this student a complete idiot and well Snickers has heard about this wonderful pilot who was put up for his stage 53.) Rock on snickers teach these punks some flying cause they clearly are ignorant to the world outside of there minds.
so youre blaming the student for not knowing about weather and icing conditions?!!! blame the victim!! sounds like someone didnt TEACH him or VERIFY HIS LEARNING about the matter before putting him in a position to make decisions about weather and icing.

look, if UND is going to send out pilots who cannot make good aeronautical decisions, they shouldnt be sending out pilots.

when you get into the real world theres not always going to be someone looking over your shoulder saying "now timmy, that doesnt look like a good decision"...or to be less condescending, not everyone will have a flying job with an airline structure and ACARS and chain of command et al...

at my job, its MY ASS if i put the plane into the side of a mountain in the middle of the night in hard IMC with my panel lights barely working and a nav2 that is INOP....and im CERTAINLY not keen on rushing out to get myself killed, so I am very interested in making good decisions!!

when my company says "i need you in upstate new york tommorrow night" i would look like a damn fool if i had to ask basic things like "well, is the weather good enough to go? what route should i take?"

fortunately somewhere along the line i picked up on making good decisions for myself and not relying on an SOF to tell me what can or can't be done. i fear this reliance on the "safety net" clause is going to create pilots who cannot make good aeronautical decisions on their own, or do not realize the importance of being able to make that PILOT IN COMMAND type decision and have the convinction to back it up and justify themselves (through their training, education, and experience).

you need to get the training, learn the facts, then be able to make decisions ON YOUR OWN that arent going to get yourself or someone else killed. yes, risk management is a good thing, but to completely remove the decision making, only hurts the student in the long run. its a circular process; train the student well in the beginning, verify they have the knowledge, and then they will make the right decision when the time comes, without needing an SOF to make it for them. then by making the decision on their own, they gain EXPERIENCE.

im sure someone is going to turn around and say yeah yeah youre the king of hazardous attitudes.... whatever man. when im out in the middle of the night in a cessna that is 8 years older than i am, and no one looking out for you except yourself, then come talk to me about who wants to be safe and who wants to die alone in the middle of the mountains.
 
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