Forbes Article on Regional Pilot Pay vs McDonalds Pay

Bumblebee said:
Problem is, right now there are HUNDREDS of others in the same boat with the same attitude...waiting for the swiss cheese to line up.
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Which is utterly bogus in my judgment (you will maintain positive control of the aircraft - what do you think you're paid for?), but unsurprising.
 
I ended up at a regional, which was never my original intention. From the start, my push was towards corporate, with experience and time building via 135. After flight instructing for a few hundred hours, that's exactly what I did... Worked for a 135 operator in the right seat, upgraded, and then moved to a corporate position flying a CJ3. Started over again in the right seat, then eventually upgraded. I was exactly on track as I had planned, more or less.

Then I realized something... I wasn't flying that much, my experience was still pretty low, and most people I knew in the 135 world were being treated like absolute garbage. I look at the crap I put up with during my first 135 job, and am just astounded! Horrible work rules, sub-standard maintenance, lied to constantly, etc. This even happened at my corporate job to some extent due to the way our chief pilot ran things. Eventually he was canned, but the damage was done and horrible precedents and procedures were now expectations in the owner's eyes. After talking with some 121 friends and family members, I decided to give that a try. It was a VERY scary decision for me, and I can't even tell you guys how many times I thought I was making a terrible mistake.

Here I am, about 2.5 years later. I'm on 3rd year pay at SkyWest, a lineholder, living where I want. Considering per diem, I make about $50k/yr now. Not great, but better than what some of the drama queens on here make it sound like (most of them haven't even worked a day of 121 anyway!). I could definitely make more, but I try to get about half the month off. I have stability, deal with excellent maintenance, top notch training, and have gained fantastic experience.

So is this path worth it? I think so... Yes, I'm making less right now than some 135 guys. But I also know a ton of 135 guys that seem to constantly bounce around from one crappy gig to another - yet they think they are somehow having a higher QOL than a guy at a decent regional? The upside with 121 is huge, and considering my background (no training failures, 4 year degree, industry connections, and an actual personality!), I believe I will be able to move on with the next few years. Had I stayed in 135 or corporate, I probably would have been successful too, but I know the amount of BS I had to deal with would likely be huge, the QOL likely crappy, and uncertain stability. Honestly, my only regret is that I didn't pursue 121 sooner - I would have been much better off.
 
Bumblebee said:
yes. I think that not being Tired...
Tired from commuting
Tired of trying to eek out a living from people who are reducing your QOL for more profit to them
Tired from sleeping in a crew lounge because you can't afford a place to sleep that would allow true crew rest
Tired of being being expected to act professionally in an environment that doesn't honor your efforts

Now they were unprofessional, and they shouldn't have been so that's on them...and they paid ultimately for it.

Problem is, right now there are HUNDREDS of others in the same boat with the same attitude...waiting for the swiss cheese to line up.

I saw it at our airline... we were lucky that we didn't, through sheer negligence and hubris, (all while the two pilots were talking crap <well deserved but inappropriately timed> about management) auger one in just before the Colgan crash by running a perfectly good airplane out of fuel.

You get what you pay for and if you abuse your engine by not putting fresh oil in it it's going to fail.
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They don't have to commute, they choose to.

They don't have to "eek out a living", they can choose another vocation.

They don't have to sleep in the crew room - see the above two bullet points.

"Honor your efforts"? You get a paycheck at a job. You want "satisfaction", "honor", "emotional fulfillment" or other things...why should pilots be the only ones? Name another group - be it physician, janitor, or welder and everything in between that feels they are correctly "honored". Protip - work is work. It is the simple act of selling your time for money. It is not required that people "like" work, or feel an appropriate sense of "honor" from their work - that's on the employee to find their own happiness, not me.

Nice try at misunderstanding the motor oil reference...again...but the idea that others, including myself, are trying to get across is that pilots have made their own bed. Wages will not go up until pilots begin doing something else. As much as I disagree with Orenstein at Mesa he did say one thing that was correct...and pretty damning to the pilot community (as long as one has better comprehension than you've displayed with my motor oil comment) - he said that he didn't feel he underpaid pilots because he continued to be buried with resumes at the current pay rates. Correcto-mundo Orenstein! And it is the pilots sending those resumes in themselves. Nobody guarantees anyone a job, much less in their chosen profession. Nobody cares if you really want to be a pilot but have to shovel cow manure...or if you are a pilot and could potentially do other things but choose to work for what you consider sub-standard wages.
 
jtrain609 said:
Guys in the crew room yesterday were talking about where their overnights were on this trip and how their kids were doing.

I mean, wait! That's not what the Internet says so I must be wrong!

Also, I should add that the only other thing I hear at work is how the company can burn before they take concessions.
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I guess their memory and yours must be fading. How quickly they all forgot about the furloughs or they years and years and years some spent in the right seat. Oh, and the merger lets not forget the merger and the three base closings, yeah those too. I was there and it was great, until I was furloughed and the base that I wanted to go back to was closed. If I would've accepted recall the closest base I could've commuted to from LA was CLE or EWR, since IAH was to senior to hold. So if we're going to tell what it's REALLY like, we should tell the whole story. Don't get me wrong, there is more to the story than first year pay, and if things stayed the way they were when I got hired I probably would've stayed. But that's the problem with this industry, especially at the regional level, things tend to change drastically. I'm not sorry in the way things worked out in the least. I've got a great pt 91 corp gig now and couldn't be happier.
 
PositionAndHold said:
I guess their memory and yours must be fading. How quickly they all forgot about the furloughs or they years and years and years some spent in the right seat. Oh, and the merger lets not forget the merger and the three base closings, yeah those too. I was there and it was great, until I was furloughed and the base that I wanted to go back to was closed. If I would've accepted recall the closest base I could've commuted to from LA was CLE or EWR, since IAH was to senior to hold. So if we're going to tell what it's REALLY like, we should tell the whole story. Don't get me wrong, there is more to the story than first year pay, and if things stayed the way they were when I got hired I probably would've stayed. But that's the problem with this industry, especially at the regional level, things tend to change drastically. I'm not sorry in the way things worked out in the least. I've got a great pt 91 corp gig now and couldn't be happier.
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It sucked, don't get me wrong and I was angry enough to pull the trigger on leaving the industry.

Until I put about a year into that one and realized how bad THAT option sucked.

I also know at least 5 other guys who did the same thing as me and also came screaming back to the "terrible regional airlines."

That should tell you something.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I ended up at a regional, which was never my original intention. From the start, my push was towards corporate, with experience and time building via 135. After flight instructing for a few hundred hours, that's exactly what I did... Worked for a 135 operator in the right seat, upgraded, and then moved to a corporate position flying a CJ3. Started over again in the right seat, then eventually upgraded. I was exactly on track as I had planned, more or less.

Then I realized something... I wasn't flying that much, my experience was still pretty low, and most people I knew in the 135 world were being treated like absolute garbage. I look at the crap I put up with during my first 135 job, and am just astounded! Horrible work rules, sub-standard maintenance, lied to constantly, etc. This even happened at my corporate job to some extent due to the way our chief pilot ran things. Eventually he was canned, but the damage was done and horrible precedents and procedures were now expectations in the owner's eyes. After talking with some 121 friends and family members, I decided to give that a try. It was a VERY scary decision for me, and I can't even tell you guys how many times I thought I was making a terrible mistake.

Here I am, about 2.5 years later. I'm on 3rd year pay at SkyWest, a lineholder, living where I want. Considering per diem, I make about $50k/yr now. Not great, but better than what some of the drama queens on here make it sound like (most of them haven't even worked a day of 121 anyway!). I could definitely make more, but I try to get about half the month off. I have stability, deal with excellent maintenance, top notch training, and have gained fantastic experience.

So is this path worth it? I think so... Yes, I'm making less right now than some 135 guys. But I also know a ton of 135 guys that seem to constantly bounce around from one crappy gig to another - yet they think they are somehow having a higher QOL than a guy at a decent regional? The upside with 121 is huge, and considering my background (no training failures, 4 year degree, industry connections, and an actual personality!), I believe I will be able to move on with the next few years. Had I stayed in 135 or corporate, I probably would have been successful too, but I know the amount of BS I had to deal with would likely be huge, the QOL likely crappy, and uncertain stability. Honestly, my only regret is that I didn't pursue 121 sooner - I would have been much better off.
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Yep, all that and more. :)
 
jtrain609 said:
It sucked, don't get me wrong and I was angry enough to pull the trigger on leaving the industry.

Until I put about a year into that one and realized how bad THAT option sucked.

I also know at least 5 other guys who did the same thing as me and also came screaming back to the "terrible regional airlines."

That should tell you something.
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Oh, for sure. I was just finishing the "perspective" of what a regional can be like. It's great and it sucks all at the same time. Kinda like any type of flying for a living. We all hope to end up at a place full of more like than suck. It would be interested to see what the recall rate was like at XJT. I know my sim partner is now a cop in Scottsdale.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Oh, for sure. I was just finishing the "perspective" of what a regional can be like. It's great and it sucks all at the same time. Kinda like any type of flying for a living. We all hope to end up at a place full of more like than suck. It would be interested to see what the recall rate was like at XJT. I know my sim partner is now a cop in Scottsdale.
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Not high, but you'd be surprised what people came back from. Charter, corporate, air ambulance, freight, name it. The guys that came back were shocked at how bad it was outside of the regionals.
 
jtrain609 said:
Not high, but you'd be surprised what people came back from. Charter, corporate, air ambulance, freight, name it. The guys that came back were shocked at how bad it was outside of the regionals.
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I guess I'm rare then. I'm shocked how good it is outside. Cue the "corporate sucks, all the jobs suck!!" People. There are truly great jobs in part 91 corporate, I think I have one. They've had a plane of some kind for over forty years and kept their 10 million dollar jet during one of the worst economies since the Great Depression, so I should have a little job security. I run in to guys all the time at fbo's all over the country that have the same type of job. I will concede most of the good jobs take the kind of connections and networking it would take to get a job at a major. Both aren't impossible, but just like a job at a major, there's not enough for every one that wants one.
 
Some of those comments on Forbes IMHO I thought were valid. I'm all about taking responsibility. If you knew either by research, networking, or first hand knowledge in another department of the low pay/lifestyle then why bitch about it now? There are a few good jobs in aviation other than the airlines. Albeit, I'm not an airline guy, however I commend those that do the service. I just don't understand? Bitching about $100k loans and low pay, did anyone hold the gun to the head? This is coming from someone who has 3yrs left on a Riddle loan and is content with what little possessions and big blessings I have! I did my research and luckily I found a decent job/company to grow with not only my skills as a pilot but my skills as a manager in a highly demanding business.

This is not a low ball shot to those who have taken the plunge, great for you! And I really hope things work out! I have more respect for the one who knows what they get into and trudges on with little complaining than the one who constantly bitch, won't shut up and not even a yr as a pilot. (Generational thing?) 500hr pilots graduating from a 90 day fast track, you spent the cash but not the time. Again, not a judge of character just what I see on paper, online and in life.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I've worked 9 years in 121 and 9 years in Corporate. There are great things about both, and terrible things about both.

Put your tape measure away.
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Oh, I'm not measuring at all. I was reacting to comments about non 121 guys saying that 121 is all crap and only guys at a 121 know how it is. I completely agree with what you said zap, and I was trying to explain the "whole" picture from the point of view as some one who has seen both sides as well. It's hard to show emotion well in typed words, at least for me. My apologies if I came off as "my job is the best! And it's the only way!" Not my intention at all. Like I said in a previous post, most flying jobs have some suck and some things that don't. It's everyones goal to have more good than suck. :)
 
I have been standing on the sidelines for the entire time I have held a Commercial Pilot Certificate (7 years). I have never made less than 30k since this time and I have averaged more than 40k annually. With that said, my career progression has been 0. I made a graph a while back with Compensation, Quality of Life, and Career Progression as the 3 axes in a previous thread. Compensation and QoL has been great thusfar, but at some point, you need to bite the bullet and do something else. I have over 3000 hours of SE piston time, and that has hurt me in interviews. I am coming up on 4000 hours of useless time.

Something has to give. I haven't been able to network my way into a job yet, and I turned 30 a little over a month ago. The clock is ticking, as far as I am concerned. I have never had to worry about money and I don't have many regrets, but with only 10 hours of turbine time, I am kind of stuck. Luckily, I have a little light at the end of the tunnel. jhugz hooked me up with an interview at his company. If that doesn't work out, I will bite the bullet and go 121. I really have no other choices at this point. The pay cut is going to be terrible and cause a lot of heart ache, but I been living a pretty meek lifestyle at this point.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is, but I have made over 50k in a year without flying turbine equipment, and I am hear to say that doing that in and of itself is a sacrifice to future earnings.
 
nocturnalaviator said:
Some of those comments on Forbes IMHO I thought were valid. I'm all about taking responsibility. If you knew either by research, networking, or first hand knowledge in another department of the low pay/lifestyle then why bitch about it now? There are a few good jobs in aviation other than the airlines. Albeit, I'm not an airline guy, however I commend those that do the service. I just don't understand? Bitching about $100k loans and low pay, did anyone hold the gun to the head? This is coming from someone who has 3yrs left on a Riddle loan and is content with what little possessions and big blessings I have! I did my research and luckily I found a decent job/company to grow with not only my skills as a pilot but my skills as a manager in a highly demanding business.
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To be honest I think most people just want to be able to pay their bills on first year pay. We don't have to be able to have much extra spending money. That isn't all that much to ask. Especially since it would barely add a price increase to the fares. It would be less than $1 added to passenger fares to allow livable wages to exist first year.
 
Maurus said:
To be honest I think most people just want to be able to pay their bills on first year pay. We don't have to be able to have much extra spending money. That isn't all that much to ask. Especially since it would barely add a price increase to the fares. It would be less than $1 added to passenger fares to allow livable wages to exist first year.
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Without a doubt no way is it acceptable if you can't even pay the bills including the loan payments! Any extra for luxuries well, that comes with time patience and a good budget. But yes it's not right at all.
 
I understood your motor oil comment. I just don't think it's a necessary perspective when you consider the value of someone who has gone above and beyond based on your representations that they would get to share in the success, and then not do it. I think that is unethical...true that it is the way it is, but it is still a lying thief that pulls that sort of thing.

( I understood that you considered your employees to have no more value than motor oil and f you could replace them for a dime cheaper you would.)

but...
this wasn't referring to the motor oil...it was referring to the engine using motor oil...talk about comprehension FAIL!

I was just trying to make a funny not a direct comparison...I'll simple it down for you next time.

LOL Can you understand the words that are spewing from my keyboard?
WacoFan said:
They don't have to commute, they choose to.

They don't have to "eek out a living", they can choose another vocation.

They don't have to sleep in the crew room - see the above two bullet points.

"Honor your efforts"? You get a paycheck at a job. You want "satisfaction", "honor", "emotional fulfillment" or other things...why should pilots be the only ones? Name another group - be it physician, janitor, or welder and everything in between that feels they are correctly "honored". Protip - work is work. It is the simple act of selling your time for money. It is not required that people "like" work, or feel an appropriate sense of "honor" from their work - that's on the employee to find their own happiness, not me.

Nice try at misunderstanding the motor oil reference...again...but the idea that others, including myself, are trying to get across is that pilots have made their own bed. Wages will not go up until pilots begin doing something else. As much as I disagree with Orenstein at Mesa he did say one thing that was correct...and pretty damning to the pilot community (as long as one has better comprehension than you've displayed with my motor oil comment) - he said that he didn't feel he underpaid pilots because he continued to be buried with resumes at the current pay rates. Correcto-mundo Orenstein! And it is the pilots sending those resumes in themselves. Nobody guarantees anyone a job, much less in their chosen profession. Nobody cares if you really want to be a pilot but have to shovel cow manure...or if you are a pilot and could potentially do other things but choose to work for what you consider sub-standard wages.
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