For All of you Skeptics...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Another problem I have is the instrument and multi-engine classes you have to take at PACE. You need both an IR and at least a Commercial to get in. I can see sending the guys who only have a Comm SE into the multi class, but can't one of their CFIs get you up to speed on their standards on the other stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this - however I'd say on average 70-80% of the PACE'ers coming in need a refresher. It's not all of them, but most, honestly, need some extra schooling.

The multi class, as far as I know, isn't just about aerodynamics (although they do cover that) but also about systems on the baron etc. etc. The cost is the same as about 3 hours of ground training at your typical flight school prices. So honestly, I think for the $$ it's not bad.

As far as the instrument class you have to take, not everyone needs it but its needed upwards of 99% of the time (no joke). Most of the PACE'ers come in from a controlled environment and have no idea what shooting the whole approach is like, or what to do on some of our crazy approaches (check out the DRO ILS-2 if you're bored), or how to read an approach plate for the whole procedure, or that you don't have to do the PT as published etc. etc. And again, for $130 its a good refresher, and is taught by some retired major airline folks. I hope to sit in on a few classes during my last semester here...

Ok enough with defending the program
smile.gif
. Honestly, it's not that good of a deal even IF mesa was hiring like gangbusters. I feel so bad for the incoming [PACE] class because if they'd only CFI'd for the time that they spent here and will spend waiting for a class date they'd be golden. Not to mention the $$ they'd of saved.

However, if the America West/US Air deal goes through and Mesa leverages themselves to be the sole feeder, those kids will be in a pretty good position. Aviation is all about timing...and luck!

~wheelsup

[/ QUOTE ]

This May Help As Well - Click Here
 
[ QUOTE ]
Another problem I have is the instrument and multi-engine classes you have to take at PACE. You need both an IR and at least a Commercial to get in. I can see sending the guys who only have a Comm SE into the multi class, but can't one of their CFIs get you up to speed on their standards on the other stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

The instrument class goes over stuff we should have known from our instrument rating. The level of knowledge is pretty low. That lasts about a week. After everyone is caught up, the course goes into instrument stuff as it applies to Part 121 flying, and specifically as it applies to Mesa. And if you've never seen Jepps before, this was your intro.

The multi engine class only covers Baron systems and multi-engine aerodynamics for the first month. Again the level of knowledge of the class on this stuff is pretty low. The course switches over to high speed aerodynamics, CRM, weather radar usage, CRJ weight and balance, deicing on the ground and hold times, GOM general policies, etc. That lasts another month. The last two months cover CRJ checklists and flows, emergency and abnormal checklists, normal and single-engine takeoff and approach profiles, and using the FMS.

The CFIs at the airport don't have the time to teach the multi-aerodynamics, and the critical engine, etc. Although one instructor does have his unique explanation of Baron aerodynamics.

That's the course content. Yes it's the same stuff that's taught in Mesa's ground school for free if you get hired.....
 
So someone can go to Mesa program with lets say his Insturment already and not have to take any courses already. Just take the courses he needs?
What aircraft do most graduates that get hired go to?
How long does it take for most graduates to be hired?
What percentage get a job with Mesa?
What is the average time for a FO to move to the left seat?
 
[ QUOTE ]
So someone can go to Mesa program with lets say his Insturment already and not have to take any courses already. Just take the courses he needs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends. If you do the Ab Initio, you still have to do the whole two year program (all the classes that go with the AS), you just get to skip the PPL and IR stuff. Now, most of the people I know have done the PACE program, which is like the last semester of the Ab Initio program. PACE requires you to have at least an AS plus a Comm single engine.

[ QUOTE ]
What aircraft do most graduates that get hired go to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Current trend is the CRJ, but I do know one guy that got the 1900 last year. Haven't talked to him since then, though.

[ QUOTE ]
How long does it take for most graduates to be hired?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's the sticking point. Right now, Mesa isn't hiring a whole lot, and there's a backlog of grads that are just waiting on an interview. Even more are swimming in the pool waiting on a class date. Last I heard it was 6 months from grad to interview, then another little bit waiting on a class date. Last summer (when my friend got hired out of MAPD), he went from grad to ground school in about two months.

[ QUOTE ]
What percentage get a job with Mesa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty high precentage. However, getting the interview is no guarantee of a job, and getting the job is no guarantee of getting through training. There have been MAPD grads in the past get all the way to the sim and bust.

[ QUOTE ]
What is the average time for a FO to move to the left seat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given current industry state, anyone that can correctly answer that is my new investment advisor.
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
So someone can go to Mesa program with lets say his Insturment already and not have to take any courses already. Just take the courses he needs?



[/ QUOTE ]

Kell is a little off base on this one - unless you come in with a commercial single or multi engine instrument ticket, and do PACE, you've gotta go through the whole course. I had a student last semester with almost 250 hours but he had to "enlist" for the entire course (private - multi). There is no credit for previous certficates held in the ab-initio course.

[ QUOTE ]

What aircraft do most graduates that get hired go to?

[/ QUOTE ]

I recently saw the the bid sheet for the new-hire class, it was almost all CRJ out of Philly.

[ QUOTE ]

How long does it take for most graduates to be hired?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who knows. With Mesa getting the 30 jets for Delta and the United fleet expanding, it almost looks good for the graduates. Course, things could change in a heartbeat if United folds and the Us Air deal falls through...it's been as low as a few weeks to many moons (i.e. months). After sept. 11 happened, Mesa stopped hiring but still interviewed the graduates, and those were the first to be hired when hiring did pick up - so you'll still end up with a job. And chances are if Mesa isn't hiring, no one else is
smile.gif
.


[ QUOTE ]
What percentage get a job with Mesa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ab-initio hire rate is something like 95%-97% - extremely high considering that's ratio of people graduating getting hired. Delta's academy says something like 97% hire rate, but what they don't tell you is only about 25% of the graduates of the CFI course get hired on as CFI's, so you're looking at like a 23-24% hire rate for them.

However, the PACE hire rate can range anywhere from 0% to 80-90%, but its generally MUCH lower than the ab-initio.

[ QUOTE ]
What is the average time for a FO to move to the left seat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a story for ya - When I interviewed here in August of 2004, the CFI's were being placed in the Dash 8 (it was the aircraft with the highest washout rate, so they didn't want 250 hour guys in there). Upgrade was 6-8 months for us. So I was looking at a year to teach, 6-8 months online, and the captain. Pretty good, huh?

Well, suffice to say there is no upgrade in the Dash anymore, its stagnant, and almost everyone is getting the CRJ/ERJ, including the instructors. In other words things change veeeeeeeeery quickly. Don't go someplace because of the upgrade time, if you do and you get stuck, its gonna suck...

FYI, I think current upgrade in the CRJ is floating around 4-5 years, but that's what I've heard. Perhaps a Mesa pilot here could elaborate more
smile.gif
.

If you already have a private and are almost done your instrument, I'd stick it out where you are. If you had no time, MPD is a good, viable option, and I wish I had done it. I would not recommend PACE however.

~wheelsup
 
Mike, yes. Honestly, if Hurricane Charley hadn't de-railed my Comm ME training, I'd probably be swimming in the hiring pool right now. I'm pretty happy with my choice of spending the money on CFI ratings.

[ QUOTE ]
you've gotta go through the whole course. I had a student last semester with almost 250 hours but he had to "enlist" for the entire course (private - multi).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. When I called early last year when I was tossing options around (I had just gotten my instrument), they said I'd have to do the whole two year program, but I'd be given credit for my PPL and IR. Granted things change, and it's a good possibility the person I talked to had no clue.

[ QUOTE ]
I would not recommend PACE however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious on this one, but why? My friend that went through it had nothing bad to say (other than a lot of them were looked down on by the Ab Initio guys). All but two of the PACE guys he was in class with passed and were hired. The two that didn't pass did it to themselves by assuming they would get the job. Didn't study anything for the interview and went in there with a cocky attitude. Sucks to spend $10K and then blow it like that.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...but I'd be given credit for my PPL and IR. Granted things change...

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote from the website (keeping in mind it hasn't changed for a loooong time, which hopefully I'll be fixing soon
smile.gif
):

I have a private pilot license. Why do I have to repeat the private pilot semester at your school if I start the ab initio program?

... We have found that students who come into the MPD program, regardless of flight time, must complete all the training in order to be safe and competent in our aircraft and to develop better flight skills, improve technical knowledge, and correct bad habits.

Not sure what the person you were talking to meant. Maybe he/she thought you were talking about your total time - I dunno. You'd even have to take the private ground schools. The only people who could cut short their training was the PACE B guys with their multi already, they only have to do half the lessons required.

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious on this one, but why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're throwing 10k-12k on an interview. I just don't agree with it. If someone can find a quicker way without instructing more power to 'em, I wished I had found a way. However, buying face time with HR just turns me off...

~wheelsup
 
[ QUOTE ]
check out the DRO ILS-2 if you're bored

[/ QUOTE ] Ok, I'll admit it, I am bored, but it looks pretty straight foreward to me.
 
[ QUOTE ]


Thanks, Matt. I was about to ask what the lag time was from "hired" to "class date." I know a guy who was "hired" at Skyway, but he's been waiting on a class date for close to a year. Needless to say, he's moved on.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple Skyway pilots came in to get their ATP about a week ago and told us that the company can't seem to get enough FOs to fill the ground schools....
 
Are you sure they were Skyway? Skyway hired about 100 pilots last summer to fly 30 DoJets for Delta Connection. That contract has now gone to Mesa and Skyway is furloughing almost all of those pilots. My friend is now one of the 5 most junior jet FOs and is job searching to avoid being dropped into the Beech.

If they were from Skyway, then all I can think of is that everyone threatened with being downgraded to the Beech would rather quit than fly it.
 
Yes they were from Skyway, based in Milwaukee. They said many pilots were jumping ship since the Delta deal fell through.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am a current student in the Pace Program here at MAPD and the new numbers just came in, apparently there were all but two that didn't make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

For those that are interested, just updating. Of the 26 who went into PACE in Spring 2005, 5 did not finish (3 more decided not to complete). Of the 21 who remain, 5 are still going thru the JetSim.

So 16 of the people who have finished PACE in Spring 2005, were interviewed on June 22, and two were hired on June 23, and were told to report for ground school on July 6. The remainder are waiting and have been told that the hiring pool has been depleted (They'd be the only ones in it.) If hired, they can expect a ground school at some TBD point in the future. no idea when.
 
Just an update on this last post, 24 out of 25 were offered GS's from the Beech, Dash, CRJ, and ERJ. I believe they were all offered the July 6th GS.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check out the DRO ILS-2 if you're bored

[/ QUOTE ] Ok, I'll admit it, I am bored, but it looks pretty straight foreward to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read this - late. Looks like an ILS!
 
[ QUOTE ]


I just read this - late. Looks like an ILS!

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be surprised to know how many people don't know what to do if cleared direct to the VOR, maintain 12,000 until established on the approach, and cleared for the ILS DME 2.

I haven't found one outside person yet that knows to:

- use the VOR radial 205 to track outbound until IRISS

- Switch to the localizer freq at or prior to IRISS, and turn the HSI needle to the inbound heading (to not get reverse sensing, this catches a lot of people) while continuing to go out bound for PT.

- They decend to 8800 when doing the ILS because it's bolded (on Jepp approach plates) instead of 9500' for the GS intercept altitude (again 8800 is bolded on jepps, and isn't very obvious on them like the NACA plates, and there isn't a "maintain 9500 until GS intercept" printed on the Lead Radial on the jepps)

- Almost NO ONE reads the notes that say you must use DME from the DRO vor, instead of the ILS freq. Most just assume the "DME is out or something". No joke.

Anyway, if you can get all this stuff on the first try, kudos to you, but in my experience not one person has ever gotten the approach right without some explination (which is the point of instruction I guess, otherwise I wouldn't have a job
smile.gif
).

~wheelsup

Edit:

P.S. 14 of the 24 people got the beech 1900, and most turned it down, and are trying to put off their ground school date another class or two in order to get the jet. I found out one PACE'r who got hired (around 250 hours TT mind you) turned down the beech, and found out he was going to be "fired" and called and accepted it, only to be fired again for asking for the jet one more time...

You'd think they'd be less picky at 250 hours, huh?
 
[ QUOTE ]
P.S. 14 of the 24 people got the beech 1900, and most turned it down, and are trying to put off their ground school date another class or two in order to get the jet. I found out one PACE'r who got hired (around 250 hours TT mind you) turned down the beech, and found out he was going to be "fired" and called and accepted it, only to be fired again for asking for the jet one more time...

You'd think they'd be less picky at 250 hours, huh?


[/ QUOTE ]

What a tool. Tried to buy a job then when he got it, didn't like it so he got fired. Kind of ironic.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What a tool. Tried to buy a job then when he got it, didn't like it so he got fired. Kind of ironic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know that Mesa's program was considered "PFJ".
 
It is and it isn't. It's not the traditional PFJ where you pay for a job that someone else should be getting paid for. MAPD is more like paying for specialized training, VERY similar to ATP's CRJ standards course. You pay to get trained to certain standards, and in return for roughly $10K, you get the training and an interview with Mesa. The downside is that if something happens at Mesa (like United takes a tumble or US Air goes away), you just wasted that cash since you're only geared to one airline.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top