FO question

[Nick]

SOP

One EMB-145 operator has it in the standard operating procedures that both pilots will have their feet on the rudder pedals below 10,000'.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: SOP

I flight instructed for a little over a year and it only took a little while to break me of the rudder habit. Here, on takeoff the PF does the abort, so the PNF's feet should not be on the pedals. On landing, unless you're an IOE captain or are worried your feet should not be on the pedals until you call '60 knots' in which case you grab the tiller anyway.

 

[ppragman]

It's a training habit. If you flight instructed for a long period of time, you're going to do it. If you didn't, you won't.

I think I'm right, you think you're right. We both have our reasons for it. If you wanna come down to NJC today, I can give you a whole host of reasons of why I'd want my hands and feet able to get to the controls in a split second. You might not have had the same experiences as me that shaped my opinion, and that's fine. But I didn't pull this one outta my butt.

Sure that,s fine, and I've had das kapitan scare the hell out of me a couple times on takeoff and on landing, so I understand the sentiment. However, I just have a different style. Neither way to do it is "wrong." Nobody can possibly wrong in an instance like this, its just a different style. People seem to get so worked up over stuff that isn't really that importnat.

 

[I_Money]

He is just Jr. in the company - I think it is to do with time at the company, under 2 years seems to ring a bell.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

That's one brave captain having his feet flat on the floor like that.

It didn't matter who was sitting next to me when I was signing for an aircraft, I always had my feet up on the pedals.

Maybe I spent too much time training people, but I didn't start moving my feet back until I got into the right seat of an RJ, and even then I usually had to make a conscious effort to do so as I'd usually find myself at the marker calling the tower with my feet up there.

Ugh, that's a reminder...has anyone almost said "more rudder" to a captain as they are about to place the airplane down on the runway slightly sideways? I haven't yet, but sooner or later the CFI instincts are going to kick in and I'm going to look like an ass.

 

[Cptnchia]

Know a guy who pushed the power up on a captain on short final. He was in his 2nd-3rd month online and the captain had somewhere around 10K hours in type. Needless to say the FO's life was pretty miserable for months afterwards. His defense was that as a CFI, he thought they were a bit slow.

 

[touch-n-go]

In Europe, Africa and Asia, it is not uncommon for junior FO's to wear two stripes. At Cathay pacific Second Officers (relief first officers on longhaul flights), evenwear one stripe.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

We're supposed to call out if off GS/LOC/CRS/ALT/IAS etc.. Most Captains dislike it if you do even when they are at the limits. I guess I'd rather just call a go-around if it got too dicey.

 

[Baronman]

If there is a severe compressor stall, engine failure, etc... that causes the airplane to make a sudden and sharp yaw to one direction, the PF needs full rudder authority to handle the situation. If the other pilot's foot gets in the way because it was resting on them, or even hovering just over them, then that's a safety issue.



For the first few years I was there it was the PF's abort. Right before I upgraded we switched to a Captain's only abort, so that was the policy for my last couple of years there. As a Captain, if the FO was flying, my feet always stayed on the floor. If an abort was necessary, I could quickly get my feet on the brakes without having them resting on the pedals.

You betcha I keep my feet on the petals during a TO when I'm the one responsible for the TO. If your feet are on the petals, you're not going to get in the way...If they are resting on the ground right in front of them, you sure are...or at least you'll get your shins skinned.

If the plane starts careening to the side, and it is my responsibility to carry out an abort, I see it irresponsible to have my feet on the floor, just as it would be irresponsible to not have my hands on the thrust levers (which is the procedure).

I think Jtrain knows as do many of us who have a significant amount of dual given that things (even in a light twin) can happen fast.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I'm not sure I agree with the concept of a Captain only abort unless Captains do all the take offs. I think the last think you need if you're doing an high-speed RTO is lost seconds (even if it is only 1 or 2) from relinquishing the controls and then Captain taking them. What was the thinking behind making them Captain only, do you know?

 

[WhamBamThankYouMaam!]

I'm not sure I agree with the concept of a Captain only abort unless Captains do all the take offs. I think the last think you need if you're doing an high-speed RTO is lost seconds (even if it is only 1 or 2) from relinquishing the controls and then Captain taking them. What was the thinking behind making them Captain only, do you know?

Sure, but regardless of whether or not you agree with the concept, the fact of the matter is that your company tells you how it is, and this is one area where you shouldn't "make up your own rules"

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Where in my post did I say that I was 'make[ing] up my own rules'?

 

[WhamBamThankYouMaam!]

Well you inferred that you had a problem with that policy and I'm just pointing out to anyone reading out there that regardless of whether or not you agree with a policy, policy is policy and you're not paid to make policy, you're paid to follow policy

policy policy policy.

 

[jtrain609]

Don't mean to dig this one one up again, but I just got back from NJC and it's interesting reading the responses here.

There's a real split down company lines it seems with this, which probably says something about policy.

Further, and I'd like to make it very, very clear; my feet are nowhere NEAR the pedals when PNF on a takeoff or landing as a first officer. I have NOT signed for the aircraft, and I have a very limited amount of responsibility. I'm not sure if I made that clear enough.

 

[DreamOfFlight]

Six months ago I had the pleasure of watching a V1 cut in the 737-800 sim at CAL. While the PF did have his feet on the rudders it happened so fast that by the time the PF figured out what happened the aircraft had already corrected for it via the yaw damper. The guy was no slouch either, IIRC he had some 3000 hours, mostly in King Airs (which is why he got a V1 cut). As I recall all 737's are equipped with yaw dampers that are capable of this manuever. Sometimes things happen to fast to close to the ground for a human to have a prayer of responding to fast enough and computers can't be beat for reaction times. I personally would have at least one set of feet on the rudders, but I realize that if something actually did happen i'd have little prayer of catching it faster than the comptuer. In the 737, I understand Boeing SOP to be "do nothing, let the computer handle it". In fact we were told to fly the whole flight after takeoff with our feet on the floor. But I could be wrong, my experience with the aircraft is rather limited.

 

[jtrain609]

Yaw damp turned ON during takeoff?

AROO? I'm not a 737 driver, but I've never heard of a YD being turned on during takeoff. We'd kick ours on around 400' ish in the EMB-145.

EDIT: There's GOT to be some kind of misunderstanding here, because the FAA would NEVER certify an aircraft that NEEDED a YD turned on to not kill yourself on a V1 cut. V1 cuts a complete joke in the EMB-145, and I can't imagine the 737 is really THAT much different. V1 cuts sound scary, but to tell you the truth they're pretty easy to accomplish. I think a good VMC demo is a lot harder to do, in my opinion.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Many aircraft have the yaw damp engaged at all times. In the BE-1900D, yaw damp wasn't on for takeoff, but rudder boost would take care of the engine failure for you.

I'm not familiar with the 737 systems, but I can ask some of our 737 drivers.

 

[Nick]

Yaw damp turned ON during takeoff?

AROO? I'm not a 737 driver, but I've never heard of a YD being turned on during takeoff. We'd kick ours on around 400' ish in the EMB-145.

There are a bunch, even to include the successor Embraer to the -145. The -170/190 series has the yaw damper on at the gate and on until at the gate at shutdown.

EDIT: There's GOT to be some kind of misunderstanding here, because the FAA would NEVER certify an aircraft that NEEDED a YD turned on to not kill yourself on a V1 cut. V1 cuts a complete joke in the EMB-145, and I can't imagine the 737 is really THAT much different. V1 cuts sound scary, but to tell you the truth they're pretty easy to accomplish. I think a good VMC demo is a lot harder to do, in my opinion.

I do also think there is a misunderstanding.

Does anyone out there know of a plane where the YD takes care of a V1 cut for you?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Does anyone out there know of a plane where the YD takes care of a V1 cut for you?

Like I said, the rudder boost takes care of it for you on the 1900D. Not exactly the yaw damper, but could be mistaken for it by a noob. On the 717, if the failure occurs after wheels up and autopilot on and before selecting a different lateral mode, then the parallel rudder system will take care of it for you.

 

[jtrain609]

Rudder boost can fail, and you have to prove that you can do a V1 cut without rudder boost and auto feather eh?

As a required item, I can't imagine the FAA would allow such a thing, because even if it's working prior to takeoff, there's nothing to say it can't fail DURING the takeoff roll and if you can't fly the aircraft during a V1 cut without it, then I can't see the FAA certifying the aircraft like that.