Flying in formation

thewaffles

Well-Known Member
Need to clarify, I'm not looking to do close formation flying, just very loosely two planes flying on a short cross country.

My friend and I want to do a short cross country down to VNC, but we're going to take two planes since we're taking some friends with us. Would we be able to do a flight following for both and still fly together? I'd also assume since we're going into Class B airspace that they would have to separate us as well?
 
They normally have the lead sqwuak a discrete code and the formation flight sqwuak standby. You're seperated as a single flight. Just be careful.
 
My friend and I want to do a short cross country down to VNC, but we're going to take two planes since we're taking some friends with us. Would we be able to do a flight following for both and still fly together? I'd also assume since we're going into Class B airspace that they would have to separate us as well?

If you maintain "standard formation" (within 100' and 1 mile of each other) then ATC keeps you that way, and only lead squawks or does the talking to ATC. If at anytime you go non-standard, then #2 will have to squawk....generally 4000.

Word of caution though, I DO NOT recommend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.

Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are Lead/Wing ATC responsibilities for different phases/types of form flight? What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot? In formation flying, things can go to hell in a handbasket obviously, or insidiously; and you have to be able to detect and react to both properly.

All that being said, with the proper training, formation flying can be fun and interesting; but I'll never fly formation with someone without the training (unless, of course, I'm instructing them in it). I do get somewhat leery reading AIM Section 7-5-10 covering Emergency Airborne Inspection of Other Aircraft. Again, a VERY risky maneuver. Some of you may remember the death of Senator John Heinz in 1991. He was riding as a pax in a Piper Aerostar that had an unsafe gear indication. A Bell 412 helo rejoined on the Aerostar, per the Aerostar pilot's request to check out the gear. The two aircraft ended up having a mid-air resulting in all fatal on both aircraft. Both crews were untrained in formation ops, and it bit them hard. There's very few situations where civilian aircraft HAVE to fly formation, and a word of caution, if any accident/incident arises from formation flight, especially with an untrained crew, the FAA will have a field day invoking 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation. Another midair that happened back in 1985 when I was in training (which I remember since it was big news) happened north of PHX near Camp Verde, AZ, and is linked here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X36208&key=2

For the questions you're asking, esp as to how formation flight relates to ATC, it's clear the training isn't there. Not a hit on you; because you can't be expected to know what you haven't been trained on.
 
Well said...

There are plenty of resources out there for formation flight training. Take a very serious look a them.
 
if you just want to join up with eachother in a very, very loose formation, it should be ok. I echo MikeD's sentiment that unless you've had training do not fly a tight formation or do formation takeoff/landings.

When you talk to center/approach for FF, only have the lead call up and say something like "Cessna 1234X/A, flight of 2, position, altitude, destination XYZ, flight following". They'll radar identify you and give you a squawk and tell you to have the other ship either squawk 1200 or stop squawk.
 
if you just want to join up with eachother in a very, very loose formation, it should be ok. I echo MikeD's sentiment that unless you've had training do not fly a tight formation or do formation takeoff/landings.

Agree too that flying very loosly in the vicinity of another aircraft, maintaining visual separation and going same way/same day, shouldn't be difficult, as you state.
 
Thank you all for the feedback.

My apologies, I should have clarified. We just want to do a very loose formation as you mentioned casey.

We would take off separately and meet up safely en route. One of the obstacles is that there's a low layer of class B while heading down to VNC that we'd rather just do a flight following through.
 
Thank you all for the feedback.

My apologies, I should have clarified. We just want to do a very loose formation as you mentioned casey.

We would take off separately and meet up safely en route. One of the obstacles is that there's a low layer of class B while heading down to VNC that we'd rather just do a flight following through.

That should work then. No apologies necessary! Have fun!
 
So when we call ground, should one of us request class B and say flight of two? Or both do it separately? Thanks again for the help again!

Can't say it much better than this...

When you talk to center/approach for FF, only have the lead call up and say something like "Cessna 1234X/A, flight of 2, position, altitude, destination XYZ, flight following". They'll radar identify you and give you a squawk and tell you to have the other ship either squawk 1200 or stop squawk.
 
if you both have access to FSX, try and fly some formation in there. I know its only a sim, but it can really help you at least know what to do. I flew as lead and wing in FSX in an aerobatics team flying about 18 inches apart, with realism settings on so if you touch, you actual have a mid-air. From flying that, I flew some formation in real life, and I felt so much more comfortable because I at least knew in theory some of the situations that can occur and how to handle them.
 
It is fine to form up loose once you are airborne, but I would leave it at that. You need some basic instruction to do it properly and without radios. Remember, the lead is in charge of navigation, and the 2 is in charge of not running into the lead.
 
Do you know how it will be in Class B?

ATC, in bravo or elsewhere, will treat your formation as one aircraft. Only the lead has a code, only the lead talks. Lead is responsible for communication and navigation. 2 follows and doesn't run into the lead. Use your callsign and add "flight of 2" on your initial call, and 'flight' after your callsign on all later calls. ATC won't treat you any different then normal.

With the two planes in formation never communicating with each other over the radio you can see how you must brief carefully and both understand what is going to happen during all phases of flight. Formation departures and arrivals definately need some instruction before you go out and perform them.
 
ATC, in bravo or elsewhere, will treat your formation as one aircraft. Only the lead has a code, only the lead talks. Lead is responsible for communication and navigation. 2 follows and doesn't run into the lead. Use your callsign and add "flight of 2" on your initial call, and 'flight' after your callsign on all later calls. ATC won't treat you any different then normal.

With the two planes in formation never communicating with each other over the radio you can see how you must brief carefully and both understand what is going to happen during all phases of flight. Formation departures and arrivals definately need some instruction before you go out and perform them.

:yeahthat:

They treat "Flights" as a single airplane. If you aren't comfortable or training in formation takeoffs or landings, then the lead should tell ATC where you plan on "breaking" the formation. (or just do it clear of the airspace, and come in separately)

Be sure that you both know the plan, and know all of your hand signals to avoid talking to each other on the radio while formed up.

Have fun! Formation Flying is some of the most fun flying that I have ever done.
 
I'd fly a loose formation, without the training I don't think I would try the landing or take off in formation.
 
Just make sure you say Flight of 2 every time you say your call sign. That way there is no confusion.
 
I'd fly a loose formation, without the training I don't think I would try the landing or take off in formation.

Yep. Theres no reason in the world for a landing or t.o. in formation. 1 mile and 100' is a lot of room for a couple of bug smashers. This is no big deal really. Talk about it before hand.
 
Back
Top