Fly runway heading question
- Thread starter mdspytko
- Start date
z987k
Well-Known Member
How do you track the centerline IMC especially if there's no localizer?
Shiner
El Capitan
Just to add another wrinkle to the discussion...
Deer Valley has parallel runways and often gives the instruction, "fly straight out". Tracking into the other runways airspace is not tolerated and an insufficient crab will get you a verbal reminder from ATC to correct back to the appropriate runway.
Deer Valley has parallel runways and often gives the instruction, "fly straight out". Tracking into the other runways airspace is not tolerated and an insufficient crab will get you a verbal reminder from ATC to correct back to the appropriate runway.
inigo88
Composite-lover
While this is good practice to stay on the extended centerline in IMC, it's a technically incorrect definition of "runway heading" as cited above.
If ATC wants you to stay on the ILS localizer backcourse, they will usually tell you. Case in point, Reno/Tahoe Int'l airport (KRNO), elevation 4400 ft. With winds usually favoring departures to the south, immediately after departure you climb up a valley with a 10800 ft mountain on your right (Mt Rose) and 7800 ft mountains on your left, and you're shooting a 5 nm wide gap between them. ATC can't risk sending you out runway heading and hoping the winds aloft don't CFIT you into some mountain while IMC. So for the RENO 5 departure, the clearance is very specifically "Cleared via the RENO5 departure, track the ILS 16R localizer backcourse until advised... expect radar vectors to...", and the departure will vector you on course once you've climbed above all the polygons of death on their MVA map. My phraseology might be a little off, but as you can see there's no room left for ambiguity.
Nice example!
inigo88
Composite-lover
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
The couple examples earlier in the thread of a controller being confused about heading vs. track are really an embarrassment. If you are operating under IFR, "fly runway heading" means you do not apply wind correction, period.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Just like fly XXX heading while en-route doesn't mean you hold that ground track. The controller already did the math.
U_of_I_Tweak
Well-Known Member
Fly straight out: Track the runway course.
Fly runway heading: track the runway to the end then fly runway heading.
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Fly runway heading: track the runway to the end then fly runway heading.
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z987k
Well-Known Member
AHHHHHHHHHHHH! No, fly runway heading means if you're taking off 32, fly heading 320. How the F do you track over the runway if the weather is OVC001 RVR1800 for instance? Aside from the localizer, but if he wanted you on the localizer outbound, they'd say that.
U_of_I_Tweak
Well-Known Member
We are splitting hairs with an atomic bomb. During takeoff, I track down the runway visually until 400' or it isn't possible visually. At 400' I turn to the assigned heading. Our takeoff is made with the flight director in heading mode, and the runway heading bugged. If I'm told to maintain runway heading, I track the runway until 400' then center on the bug. I see no difference between an assigned heading other than runway heading and runway heading for these purposes. I'm going to keep the runway under me until I reach the end, 400' or enter the clouds.
Now, in reality there is next to no difference when I'm flying a jet. 400' and the end of the runway come within seconds of each other, and barring a very strong crosswind, there is little heading change due to the speeds I'm traveling.
This is one of those interesting academic discussions, that applies to actual flying on a very limited basis.
I ask you, what do you do when you're cleared for takeoff an assigned a heading other than runway heading?
z987k
Well-Known Member
Well then I fly the departure. It'll have an altitude for me to make said turn to that heading at.
U_of_I_Tweak
Well-Known Member
You've never had a clearance that was a simple heading on departure?
Example: N123XX, cleared to BFE via radar vectors XYZ as filed, maintain 3000, expect FL400 in ten, departure is 120.55 squawk 2255.
Takeoff clearance: N123XX, turn right heading 270, runway 20, cleared for takeoff.
No filed or assigned departure procedure, just a heading to turn to off the runway. At what altitude would you begin the turn to the assigned heading?
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z987k
Well-Known Member
There's always a sid or dp. In the case of the D, C or B it's going to be a sid and you will get it in the clearance, and at the E there's a DP and not following it is at your own peril assuming pt 91. I don't understand why you wouldn't follow them? Most of the SID's are radar vectors anyways.
Question: You stated if you're departing runway 32, and instructed to fly the runway heading you fly 320.
If the runway heading is actually charted 325, do you fly the charted 325, or do you fly the 320?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Plenty of SID's have "runway heading until xxxx ft then....." in them. I'm assuming this is what the OP is referring to.
RRPower
Well-Known Member
What is the runway heading? If its 320 then fly that...if its 325 then fly that. You don't say ohh it's runway 32 I will fly 320. You look at your chart and that's it.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Line up, sync the heading bug (it should already be close--think Comair) and fly that.
Sent from Seat 3D
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
There are many airports without a SID or an ODP. If the airport has a published instrument approach but no departure procedure, it meets diverse departure criteria and you will not hit anything in any direction given standard climb rates and threshhold crossing height. Your clearance will include a heading or direct-to fix.
Here's a previous thread about it: http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/departing-an-airport-ifr-without-an-sid-or-odp.99605/page-2