Flight following / Class B clearance

[tgrayson]

"Cleared into the Bravo" works for me. Or "XYZ transition through the Bravo approved."

What's good enough for you isn't the issue, the question is what is good enough for the FAA. And a heading and altitude is good enough, according to the NTSB, and that's as it should be. Given that the FAA has never specified what the clearance should consist of, any unambiguous instruction from ATC that takes you into the Class B should be reasonably construed to be an implicit clearance. That's only fair and reasonable and, however improbably, the NTSB came down on the side of fairness and reason.

I don't think being /U makes it impossible to know where you are.

Didn't say it was "impossible", I said "tough". I spent the last 13 years flying in and around a class B, so I'm very familiar with the challenges. If you're getting vectored around by ATC, getting cross radials or having your head down on a terminal area chart isn't the most productive use of your time.

When I'm shooting practice instrument approaches, if I don't hear the "cleared" word, I'll usually ask for it, but I may skip that if the frequency is busy and I get a firm heading and altitude assignment. The latter isn't guaranteed; sometimes they'll leave out an altitude assignment or just say "at or below", neither of which does me any good regarding an implicit Class B clearance.

 

[MikeD]

What's good enough for you isn't the issue, the question is what is good enough for the FAA. And a heading and altitude is good enough, according to the NTSB, and that's as it should be. Given that the FAA has never specified what the clearance should consist of, any unambiguous instruction from ATC that takes you into the Class B should be reasonably construed to be an implicit clearance. That's only fair and reasonable and, however improbably, the NTSB came down on the side of fairness and reason.

Two separate issues going here. It may be fair and reasonable from a legal standpoint, but I still think (as a separate issue) it breeds pilots to over-rely on ATC "holding their hand" simply because they're getting flight following, when a PIC should be exercising good airmanship ala knowing where his plane is going at all times, and not depending on someone else to do it for him.

Didn't say it was "impossible", I said "tough". I spent the last 13 years flying in and around a class B, so I'm very familiar with the challenges. If you're getting vectored around by ATC, getting cross radials or having your head down on a terminal area chart isn't the most productive use of your time.

Here's where a little pre-planning goes a long way though. It can be tough I agree, or it can be made somewhat easier, depending on the pilot and what he does with pre-loading his SA bag of tricks. To me, so long as a guy isn't tooling along fat/dumb/happy and can at a minimum trust-but-verify with what ATC is giving him, then that's good airmanship. While it may very well be a "fair" interpertation from the NTSB regards a TCA bust, there's truly no excuse for it from the pilot standpoint insofar as not knowing that you were headed into the airspace. To me, this ties straight into the concept of 14 CFR 91.3(a).

 

[Beehive]

Bravo = IFR only unless VFR with a clearance, routing and altitude. Never leave ATC freq while in Bravo unless instructed to.
If you need help staying out of Bravo or any other airspace, ask for suggested headings, altitudes or routings.
Don't expect controllers to babysit your rights of being VFR around busy airports.

I respect the pilots (mostly old timers) who call because they're transitioning close to Bravo and would like the safeist and easiest route through or around without problems.

 

[Yank&BankmyRJ145]

Rather tough for a /U aircraft.

Regardless, the FAA has never specified what form a Class B clearance should take.

7-9-1. APPLICATION
Apply Class B services and procedures within the
designated Class B airspace.
a. No person may operate an aircraft within
ClassB airspace unless:
1. The aircraft has an operable two‐way radio
capable of communications with ATC on appropriate
frequencies for that Class B airspace.
2. The aircraft is equipped with the applicable
operating transponder and automatic altitude report
ing equipment specified in para (a) of 14 CFR
Section91.215, except as provided in para (d) of that
section.
7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B
AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-18, Operational Requests.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO
AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO
AIRSPACE.
 
 or
CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)
REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When
necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)
NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is
based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance
with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will
cause violation of any part of the CFR.
2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is
dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate
VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage
occurs.
b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to
operate in Class B airspace based on workload,
operational limitations and traffic conditions.
c. Inform the pilot when to expect further
clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or
outside Class B airspace.
d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B
airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY-
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS
FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR
SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO
ZERO.
7-9-3. METHODS
a. To the extent practical, clear large turbine
engine‐powered airplanes to/from the primary airport
using altitudes and routes that avoid VFR corridors
and airspace below the Class B airspace floor where
VFR aircraft are operating.
NOTE-
Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to
advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes,
headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the
CFR.
b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace
after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and
reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to
extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for
spacing.
NOTE-
14 CFR Section 91.131 states that “Unless otherwise
authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine
engine‐powered airplane to or from a primary airport for
which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate
at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace
area while within the lateral limits of that area.” Such
authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-1-10, Deviation Advisories.

 

[Xcaliber]

CLEARED AS REQUESTED

I've been meaning to ask about that one. Good to know. In the same vein, though, what about "APPROVED AS REQUESTED" or "PROCEED AS REQUESTED" instead of "cleared"? I get both of those a lot.

 

[genot]

I've been meaning to ask about that one. Good to know. In the same vein, though, what about "APPROVED AS REQUESTED" or "PROCEED AS REQUESTED" instead of "cleared"? I get both of those a lot.

I'd be amazed if a controller meant something other than cleared as requested by either statement. I'll typically say approved as requested as a blanket approval / clearance. Sometimes you get deviation requests of say "can I get either 15 to the left or 30 to the right?" with nobody within 20 miles of them, a GA guy asking if they can proceed to an intermediate fix followed by a crossing altitude request / inbound radial to join / proceedure turn inbound (what I call a build your own practice approach) or an obligatory hey can I give direct from another controller. Approved as requested works just fine in all instances for me. I probably would use a blanket proceed as requested except it isn't in the book as far as I know for use on the landline.

 

[USRaven]

TPA Approach is kind of lax about this, get used to it.

You NEED to have a clearance to enter the Bravo airspace. Period. A vector that takes you into the Bravo is NOT sufficient if you are VFR. (It is if you are IFR).

They CAN vector you into Sarasota's Charlie, or MacDill, PIE, and SPG's Delta's without any explicit clearance. Just talking to them is enough to transit those airspaces.

If you are getting near the Bravo, just say "N12345, verify clearance into the Bravo." Do a 360 if you can't get them on the radio (TPA approach isn't that busy, you'll almost always be able to get a word in)

Around Tampa, just get in the habit of saying "Request clearance through the Bravo" when you call them initially. Something like "Skyhawk 1234, 10 North East of SRQ, 6500, request flight following to KZPH and clearance into the Bravo." Even if you don't think you need the clearance, ask for it anyway, since there is a good chance they might vector you in for traffic.

That sounds like a plan! I will be making this call a LOT more often. I fly to CAP twice a month, flight following is mandatory; so I will have some practice. Thanks for the input.

 

[Xcaliber]

I'd be amazed if a controller meant something other than cleared as requested by either statement. I'll typically say approved as requested as a blanket approval / clearance. Sometimes you get deviation requests of say "can I get either 15 to the left or 30 to the right?" with nobody within 20 miles of them, a GA guy asking if they can proceed to an intermediate fix followed by a crossing altitude request / inbound radial to join / proceedure turn inbound (what I call a build your own practice approach) or an obligatory hey can I give direct from another controller. Approved as requested works just fine in all instances for me. I probably would use a blanket proceed as requested except it isn't in the book as far as I know for use on the landline.

Oh, I know exactly what they mean. We do a lot of coordinating with ATC at my job, calling them up before taking off, faxing maps, once in the air describing exactly what we're going to do, how far into their airspace we'll be going, etc. So if we get a blanket "Approved as requested", it's pretty obvious that we're allowed in the B, if our lines take us in there. I'm just wondering how that will hold up in legal proceedings. As long as I remember to, I'll ask for B verification anyways, though, just in case.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

That sounds like a plan! I will be making this call a LOT more often. I fly to CAP twice a month, flight following is mandatory; so I will have some practice. Thanks for the input.

Or file IFR and cancel as soon as you are clear of the bravo.

Makes your life easier - you have a clearance into the bravo before you taxi.
Makes the controller's life easier - they know you are coming.
Keeps you from reading and reading back a long clearance on a busy approach frequency.

BTW, how can flight following be "mandatory?" ATC can say no or terminate it any time they like.

 

[granlistillo]

What's good enough for you isn't the issue, the question is what is good enough for the FAA. And a heading and altitude is good enough, according to the NTSB, and that's as it should be. Given that the FAA has never specified what the clearance should consist of, any unambiguous instruction from ATC that takes you into the Class B should be reasonably construed to be an implicit clearance. That's only fair and reasonable and, however improbably, the NTSB came down on the side of fairness and reason.

And the FAA is always consistent? If you got violated for any reason, I would say this is poor headwork. Why parse words? Just because there is a precedent from 1990, is no reason not to do what the regs say to do, obtain a clearance. When you are IFR, every instruction they give is a clearance. VFR, I would say no. While this precedent may be useful if you have to hire a lawyer to represent you before a NTSB admin law judge, why risk it?:dunno:

 

[granlistillo]

That sounds like a plan! I will be making this call a LOT more often. I fly to CAP twice a month, flight following is mandatory; so I will have some practice. Thanks for the input.

BTW, how can flight following be "mandatory?" ATC can say no or terminate it any time they like.

Company policy? I think some schools mandate FF for xcountry. You are correct though, they can and do drop you for controller work load.

 

[Douglas]

And the FAA is always consistent? If you got violated for any reason, I would say this is poor headwork.

True, the FAA isn't but a court of law is; a precedent has been set.

 

[Louie1975]

If you are given a heading but not an altitude, and that heading takes you into Bravo, and the controller is too busy talking to other aircraft, do you just turn away? Would that action violate the FAR that says you must follow your last assigned ATC clearance(91.123)?

 

[tgrayson]

If you are given a heading but not an altitude, and that heading takes you into Bravo, and the controller is too busy talking to other aircraft, do you just turn away?

No, you descend.

 

[germb747]

In my experience flying GA with the Houston controllers, they're pretty good at automatically offering up the "cleared into Bravo airspace" verbiage for the tapes, even though I never had any intention of flying into the Bravo airspace to begin with. Still, when flying VFR, the onus is on YOU to listen for the magic words; that's the only "get out of jail free" card you have.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

If you are given a heading but not an altitude, and that heading takes you into Bravo, and the controller is too busy talking to other aircraft, do you just turn away? Would that action violate the FAR that says you must follow your last assigned ATC clearance(91.123)?

Getting a vector VFR isn't necessarily a clearance. I know of people that have been "vectored" across the ADIZ VFR for traffic, then busted for it.

I personally would do a 360 at the edge of the Bravo until I could get a clearance. Once you start to turn, they will notice you pretty quickly.

 

[avi8r2012]

Doing my training down in Florida around the Orlando Bravo on the east coast with a lot of the restricted airspace it is not at all uncommon to be given a vector that would put me right into the Class B. As soon as i notice this is happening I immediately will just call for a clearance just to be sure. Just to cover yourself you can never be to sorry. I have though had experiences where controllers have been not so nice when I asked for a confirmation or even a clearance through but the way that i look at it is i would rather ask twice then totally forgetting and getting busted for it!

 

[Yank&BankmyRJ145]

If you are given a heading but not an altitude, and that heading takes you into Bravo, and the controller is too busy talking to other aircraft, do you just turn away? Would that action violate the FAR that says you must follow your last assigned ATC clearance(91.123)?

Yes to the first question/ No to the second question, because the end of the first part says "When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC."
I see the FAA putting that on the pilot with that statement. And you are VFR

No, you descend.

Yes:clap:
I give vectors toward Bravo airspace all the time without a clearance. Most start a descend to go under Bravo which is what I want them to do. I mostly clear people to enter Bravo whom are transitioning my airspace. If they are landing under the Bravo i want them down below my jet traffic for the big Bravo airport. If I do clear someone to enter Bravo I always put an Altitude on them and want to know their on course heading or I assign one. In Bravo there are separation requirements for VFR/IFR aircraft that I must maintain, so I treat everyone in Bravo (VFR or IFR) as an IFR aircraft. Thats why I put alt. and headings on people. Hope this helps

Oh and if your unsure if you are cleared to enter Bravo...ASK... nothing wrong with asking

 

[BMW>PILOT2]

USRAVEN, I'M curious to find out what did you do? did you continue into class b without questioning the controller who vectored you?

 

[rd757]

I had an interesting experience while in Florida a week ago. We were up flying on New Years Eve at midnight. On the way into PIE from VNC (around 2330L) we had no issues with TPA APP, called up got FF and a squawk. Immediately cleared us into the TPA Bravo with the proper "Nxx390 cleared into the TPA Class Bravo" sweet no problems there...

The return leg was a bit different, departing PIE I gave the initial call to TPA "Tampa Approach, Skyhawk Nxx390 3 south of PIE, 2,000ft direct Venice, request Flight Following" and got a response of only "proceed as requested." No tail number, no squawk, no nothing. I thought to myself "hmmm well I can't climb into the Bravo technically and I can't do anything else so I'll stay 1,000ft over the bay [:bandit:]" I waited a few more minutes and tried again "Tampa Approach Skyhawk Nxx390 VFR with request" and got a "go ahead" again no tailnumber nothing. "Skyhawk Nxx390 over the bay 1,100 direct Venice, request flight following" and again "proceed as requested." Sweet, I still can't go into the Bravo, can't get Flight Following out over water and I have the SRQ Charlie coming out that I'm going to have to dodge since I haven't heard my full tail yet. So I query the controller "Approach, Skyhawk Nxx390 has a question if you have a minute."

"Sure 390 go ahead..."
"Yes Sir, as I understand it, I need to hear my full tail number read back before entering a Class Charlie and hear 'cleared into the Bravo' to enter your airspace, neither of which I've heard so far"
"Fine, you're cleared into the Class Delta, Bravo, Charlie, whatever you need you're cleared into it, it's midnight.... N390"
Thinking to myself...(great... he still didn't read my back my full tail number or give me a squawk or anything... what is his deal!?)... "Thanks, NXX390 (Trying to get him to read the full tail)

So knowing that the regs still apply even on New Years, I remained clear of the Bravo and Charlie (much to my dismay) and continued on my way to VNC, dodging fireworks as we headed down the coast. After getting back to VNC, I asked the head instructor that was down there with us what he would have done... he said he would have just gone into the Bravo since the controller gave us that response... however the whole thing just seemed fishy to me.

What do you guys think, or what would you have done?

Thanks,