Flap retraction on the runway

cmill said:
Wrong. Just like the swissair flight that followed the checklist all the way into the ocean while the plane was on fire.
Click to expand...

Again, not really sure what you're getting at here.

Departing from SOP in an emergency isn't the same as departing from SOP as a matter of SOP.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're afforded that luxury. The entire runway is yours. If you're not man enough to tell the controller, or the pilot behind you to make some room, then that's YOUR problem.
Click to expand...
Not a single one of my 1800 turf runway landings have been at a towered airport. I'd love to try one though.

jtrain609 said:
Great advice.
Click to expand...
And great practice.

jtrain609 said:
Which is why nobody has ever made that mistake.
Click to expand...
See above.

jtrain609 said:
I have.
Click to expand...
That's your fault, not the procedures.

jtrain609 said:
It doesn't cramp anything. You can make all the bad decisions you want, but I won't sit here while folks try to justify bad decision making.
Click to expand...
It's not a bad decision, it's one of a practical nature that comes from flying in a world where you get the job done by doing, not by programming a FMS.

Again, uncomfortable is not unsafe. Fly into a little grass strip on sloping terrain which forces you to land with a tailwind and then talk to me about bad decisions.

The world isn't all 8000x150 with an ILS. Sometimes it's a gravel road nestled in the middle of a small forest.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not sure what this means. Is your aircraft incapable of back taxiing?
Click to expand...

On the water, yes. On land, what i meant was you dont have the comfort of not laying on the brakes. The charts in the plane are pretty much based on burning the tires up. Like i said, some of use fly it to the very edge, and sometimes, beyond.
 
esa17 said:
That's your fault, not the procedures.
Click to expand...

Actually it was the CFI candidate that was sitting next to me, who I didn't ever teach to do to this.


It's not a bad decision, it's one of a practical nature that comes from flying in a world where you get the job done by doing, not by programming a FMS.
Click to expand...

I spent a decade in that world prior to ever touching an FMS.

Again, uncomfortable is not unsafe. Fly into a little grass strip on sloping terrain which forces you to land with a tailwind and then talk to me about bad decisions.

The world isn't all 8000x150 with an ILS. Sometimes it's a gravel road nestled in the middle of a small forest.
Click to expand...

I'm well aware, slick.
Click to expand...
 
cmill said:
On the water, yes. On land, what i meant was you dont have the comfort of not laying on the brakes. The charts in the plane are pretty much based on burning the tires up. Like i said, some of use fly it to the very edge, and sometimes, beyond.
Click to expand...

Keep it up, slick, you'll run yourself off the runway that way.

Hope your boss likes your procedures enough to keep you around, then, to say nothing of what the FAA will have to say.
 
jtrain609 said:
Again, not really sure what you're getting at here.

Departing from SOP in an emergency isn't the same as departing from SOP as a matter of SOP.
Click to expand...

All im saying is, dont assume the SOP is exactly SOP for some people's SOP...

If that makes any sense.
 
jtrain609 said:
Keep it up, slick, you'll run yourself off the runway that way.

Hope your boss likes your procedures enough to keep you around, then, to say nothing of what the FAA will have to say.
Click to expand...

To this day ive never seen a published take off or landing distance for water landings. Beleive it or not, there are some people that fly by the seat of their pants.

EDIT: The FAA thinks highly of us enough to give us the privilege of training our POI.
 
esa17 said:
Obviously not or you wouldn't be advocating a blanket procedure which is both impractical and at times quite silly...Nancy.
Click to expand...

I'm a nancy because I want to do things that won't bend metal?

Check it out, boss, if you can't put a 172 down on a 1,800 turf runway without putting the flaps out as soon as you're on the ground, you need some remedial training.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm a nancy because I want to do things that won't bend metal?
Click to expand...
You're never going to bend any metal sitting in a barcalounger telling people to do things your way. Comfortable sure is safe isn't it?

jtrain609 said:
Check it out, boss, if you can't put a 172 down on a 1,800 turf runway without putting the flaps out as soon as you're on the ground, you need some remedial training.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I seem to recall talking about slick aircraft...You know, the ones you need to actually fly and not those land-o-matics but ok, you're right. There is only one way to do things.

With out getting into much more of a Png match I'm supremely confident in my abilities as a pilot and a lot of others are too. I'd put my experience up agains't yours any day. As Cmill stated what works for you doesn't work for us but thats uncomfortable for you and obviously you can't deal with that.
 
esa17 said:
Thats right, ONE. The gear.

Don't ever touch the gear handle and you don't have to worry about a squat switch. Even when the flap and gear handles are situated right next to each other that can easily be trained away. I've never once had a student almost retract the gear and I've taught this way for quite a while. It's all about what you put in their head.
Click to expand...

Be careful with those blanket statements. People that have some of those older Bonanza's that they fly interspersed with other aircraft might disagree with how easy it is to "train away" those bad habits. It makes it tough when one airplane has the flaps/gear levers reverse positions from the other. When I first started flying a 1970 V35B is when I quit reaching for the flap handle on roll-out.

To chime in on the larger picture I'll just say that in my opinion there may be times/situations where retracting flaps during landing is an acceptable, nay necessary procedure. That said, I'd much rather see it taught as one of those tools you keep in the tool box for when it's needed, rather than teach it as a 'normal' procedure. For sure when you get to larger/faster aircraft that particular tool is going to be taken away from the pilot and I think it's better to not have it as an ingrained habit at that point.

Teach how it can be used in specific circumstances - OK. Use it when you need to - OK. Making it a habit if it isn't truly needed - not so OK.

YMMV.
 
SteveC said:
Teach how it can be used in specific circumstances - OK. Use it when you need to - OK. Making it a habit if it isn't truly needed - not so OK.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.

You can't say one should never do it, and you can't say one should always do it. There's a time and a place.
 
SteveC said:
Be careful with those blanket statements. People that have some of those older Bonanza's that they fly interspersed with other aircraft might disagree with how easy it is to "train away" those bad habits. It makes it tough when one airplane has the flaps/gear levers reverse positions from the other. When I first started flying a 1970 V35B is when I quit reaching for the flap handle on roll-out.

To chime in on the larger picture I'll just say that in my opinion there may be times/situations where retracting flaps during landing is an acceptable, nay necessary procedure. That said, I'd much rather see it taught as one of those tools you keep in the tool box for when it's needed, rather than teach it as a 'normal' procedure. For sure when you get to larger/faster aircraft that particular tool is going to be taken away from the pilot and I think it's better to not have it as an ingrained habit at that point.

Teach how it can be used in specific circumstances - OK. Use it when you need to - OK. Making it a habit if it isn't truly needed - not so OK.

YMMV.
Click to expand...
But that's exactly what I'm talking about. A piano-key nanzer is a different deal all together that makes a point. Not every procedure works for every situation. Bonanzas are fast but can slow down really quickly on their own for a myriad of reasons. Even if you needed to get her down and stopped quickly you can train for that which is exactly the tool you mention. Saying you'd "never" do something because of some sort of SOP leaves you open to all sorts of problems you might otherwise be able to mitigate.
 
cmill said:
... Like i said, some of use fly it to the very edge, and sometimes, beyond.
Click to expand...

Sound cool, but if you were truly to fly 'beyond the edge' you would have bent metal. By definition. But it does sound pretty neat-o! :D
 
SteveC said:
It might make the conversation go a little better if we dropped the use of 'slick', 'Nancy', 'boss', and similar. Those types of words are weak tools for weak minds - you guys are better than that. :bandit:
Click to expand...

Well, i obviously have a superior mind because i never used any of those words. ;)
 
SteveC said:
It might make the conversation go a little better if we dropped the use of 'slick', 'Nancy', 'boss', and similar. Those types of words are weak tools for weak minds - you guys are better than that. :bandit:
Click to expand...

Boss is a normal part of my dialect, boss, and slick ain't so bad either, as is dude, guy, bro and holmes.
 
SteveC said:
Sound cool, but if you were truly to fly 'beyond the edge' you would have bent metal. By definition. But it does sound pretty neat-o! :D
Click to expand...

I have never bent metal, but our company has, and we have the photos to train the noobs, like me. I'm not trying to sound like a "slick" cowvoy, but most of our business has been built on trial and error, and doing things the planes werent meant to do.

Its a specialized type of flying, kinda like crop dusting, though i would never compare myself to dusters.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top