Flap retraction on the runway

It depends, if it isn't blowing I leave em' where there at, if its gusty I usually reach over and flip em' up or in the cherokee dump em'.

As for being a distraction, getting picked up by an errant 40kt gust (which I've had happen) is a little distracting too.

Basically, if you don't have the ability to control the airplane in the roll out while you retract flaps or do some other control input (because that's what the flaps are, a control surface) like holding the ailerons into the wind or something else, then you've got more pressing issues to worry about.

What I like?

In the 206/207

Touch down
Directional control is maintained
Flaps as required (flipped up if its blowing, left alone otherwise cuz' their great brakes)
Cowls open
After landing check

In the Cherokee 6
Flap lever adjusted if required
Touch down
Directional control is maintained
Flaps retracted as required
After landing check

I mean, how hard is it to reach over and flip a flap switch if its required, or to lower a lever? Not that tough. Prioritize and fly the airplane, if you're going to be too distracted for whatever reason (ie rough field, or otherwise jacked up conditions) then wait to retract them until you're sure that the airplane will remain under your control. If that means its until you clear the runway, then so be it. You've just got to know where the lever/switch is at in the cockpit and select the required setting. You don't have to fixate on the selection, more simply, just do it.

There is an added advantage to having flaps extended for a little while. For the first quarter of the landing roll it seems to me that they are more effective than brakes will be (because you can't brake that hard, because they'll skid) so you're better off to wait for a second to verify you have directional control then retract them.

The advantage to retracting them is killing that remaining lift so that the wheels are firmly planted. However, you do this equally well by making sure you touch down right above stall so that the airplane isn't flying any more at exactly the moment the wheels touch. In super gusty conditions (ie greater than 40kt gusts in a light airplane) the best bet in my opinion is to kill the flaps as soon as you can to get some wait on the wheels.

One of the spookiest times for me was going into PAKH on an exceedinly gusty day, you can bet your ass that I pulled the 207s flaps up in the flare just to maintain directional control. Without doing that I'd have been in the air flying again at too high an angle of attack and too slow to control the airplane.
 
*shrug* in a light single with Johnson bar flaps (AKA Cherokee) it might make a difference. Anything else, the flaps come up slow enough that I would put good money on it not really making a difference in stopping distance. And once you move up to retracts, there's not really a good reason to be jacking with that stuff while you're still rolling out. Especially if you're flying a certain high-performance light twin from Beech that has the levers in the wrong places...
 
Finish the after landing checklist, then pull the flaps up after you have exited the runway. If the FAA is in the back, they can see that you were messing around up front with non-essential items while on a runway.

And do you really think with the aircraft slowing down, brakes on, that if you still have flaps in your going flying again? Really??
 
v1valarob said:
And do you really think with the aircraft slowing down, brakes on, that if you still have flaps in your going flying again? Really??
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In a Cherokee, in some of the weather those knuckleheads barge around in up here, I wouldn't doubt it for a second.
 
v1valarob said:
Finish the after landing checklist, then pull the flaps up after you have exited the runway. If the FAA is in the back, they can see that you were messing around up front with non-essential items while on a runway.

And do you really think with the aircraft slowing down, brakes on, that if you still have flaps in your going flying again? Really??
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Had it happen to me in the Cherokee, the 207 and, crazily enough, the 1900C.
 
Roger said:
In a Cherokee, in some of the weather those knuckleheads barge around in up here, I wouldn't doubt it for a second.
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Well if you weigh 29,000lbs it isnt going to happen.

In part 121, you dont touch anything after landing until clear of the runway, except maybe the gust lock.
 
v1valarob said:
Well if you weigh 29,000lbs it isnt going to happen.

In part 121, you dont touch anything after landing until clear of the runway, except maybe the gust lock.
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Oh absolutely... I'm just talking about what I know.
 
v1valarob said:
Well if you weigh 29,000lbs it isnt going to happen.

In part 121, you dont touch anything after landing until clear of the runway, except maybe the gust lock.
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I dunno dude, I've seen the alaska jet do some sketchy stuff on the approach here. I doubt they retracted flaps, but I've seen the wind pick that thing up and set it down. If you go through a 40kt shear right down the field you might have an exciting time.
 
Roger said:
Oh absolutely... I'm just talking about what I know.
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Im just talking about what I know.

From a "technique" stand point, I taught my students to do NOTHING until clear of the runway. My DE on my PPL checkride basically said the same thing that was mentioned above, he didnt want students just grabbing at random things while trying to concentrate on movement on a runway. The flap handle on a C172 is in the same spot as the gear handle on a Saab 340. Both handles do very different things. Take off, and approach to landing are the most critical phases of flight, there is no need to mess with non critical items while during this phase.
 
ppragman said:
I dunno dude, I've seen the alaska jet do some sketchy stuff on the approach here. I doubt they retracted flaps, but I've seen the wind pick that thing up and set it down. If you go through a 40kt shear right down the field you might have an exciting time.
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Ill buy you a beer if you can show me where Alaska Air allows their 737s flap retraction before exiting the runway.
 
Am I a bad pilot if I say I hardly use flaps for landing, except if I need to get off on a taxiway thats near the approach end? :p

The shortest runway I've landed on recently is like 5000ft, I mean that is so much extra space for a caravan why use the flaps at all? Just one extra flap cycle. I can still land in the 1st 3rd of the runway like 135 requires and use reverse to slow down without even using the brakes and I have plenty of runway left.

I'd probably be singing a different tune if I flew into the kind of unimproved airports the caravan was designed for, though... say in AK.
 
v1valarob said:
Ill buy you a beer if you can show me where Alaska Air allows their 737s flap retraction before exiting the runway.
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I am pretty sure I have seen them retracted before exiting the runway. There are a few airports around here where they back taxi, and I have seen them come up before we leave the runway.
 
v1valarob said:
Ill buy you a beer if you can show me where Alaska Air allows their 737s flap retraction before exiting the runway.
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Not saying that they do, and in fact I doubt its permitted by their opspecs, but seriously, it might have been better to pull that lever when they catch a giant gust on short final.
 
ppragman said:
Not saying that they do, and in fact I doubt its permitted by their opspecs, but seriously, it might have been better to pull that lever when they catch a giant gust on short final.
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40kts of gust will trigger the WINDSHEAR annoying voice and thats an auto-go around.
 
Well.. no. That would just be silly, I guess. You won't get a windshear GPWS on the ground anyway, its not possible. I misunderstood.
 
ppragman said:
Not saying that they do, and in fact I doubt its permitted by their opspecs, but seriously, it might have been better to pull that lever when they catch a giant gust on short final.
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I would find it hard to believe its better to retract any flaps while on short final due to a gust.

And again, I said show me where its "allowed" to retract flaps before exiting the runway. The FAA has made it their mission to make pilots concentrate on the runway, when on, or about to enter the runway. Taking your head away from the window doesnt let you do concentrate on whats going on around you.

Im also talking about part 121 ops, as well as teaching brand new student pilots what to do. Not what technique you use at your airport using your aircraft.
 
It depends on the aircraft rob, on certain aircraft especially single engine light pistons with laminar wings that just want to keep flying no matter what retracting the flaps as soon as the wheels touch down is basic technique.
 
v1valarob said:
I would find it hard to believe its better to retract any flaps while on short final due to a gust.

And again, I said show me where its "allowed" to retract flaps before exiting the runway. The FAA has made it their mission to make pilots concentrate on the runway, when on, or about to enter the runway. Taking your head away from the window doesnt let you do concentrate on whats going on around you.

Im also talking about part 121 ops, as well as teaching brand new student pilots what to do. Not what technique you use at your airport using your aircraft.
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No no no, I mean once the wheels touch. You can jockey them in small airplanes on short final, but retracting them in the flare doesn't work that well, you speed up (which gives you a greaser) but certainly doesn't give you an added benefit in anything that matters.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
It depends on the aircraft rob, on certain aircraft especially single engine light pistons with laminar wings that just want to keep flying no matter what retracting the flaps as soon as the wheels touch down is basic technique.
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It was not my basic technique while teaching in light single piston aircraft. But we have now verified that it is a "technique," meaning we both have justifications as to why we do it, the way we do it.

My justifications are,.. keep your situational awareness on the runway you just landed on, not on cleaning up your aircraft, which can be done after exiting the runway. And because I was taught that muscle memory, and that the things you are taught first, are hard to break, you dont mess with the flaps until you can pay full attention to what your touching, because on many aircraft the gear handle is in the same location as the flap handle on training aircraft.

Either way... lets get a beer at NJC10.
 
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