FFDO Story. What do you think?

calcapt said:
The captain is most certainly in command of his/her aircraft. A smart captain will set a tone in the cockpit that will allow the maximum protection for his aircraft with the tools at his disposal. Getting sucked into a shallow debate about who has more stripes on their sleeve and who is playing second fiddle to whom, is not productive and may actually detract from security as well as safety. A captain who is willing to step back and allow his crew to do their job (FFDOs included) will in all likelihood be more successful and command more respect. Great captains don't have to tell anyone they are in charge, it's already known.
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He's at the three point line.... SWOOSH!
 
PCL_128 said:
And Captain Beebe never lied to you about anything. He simply complied with the confidentiality agreement that he was bound by with USAirways. But that's another thread...
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Eh, you're right. I got the two confused. And actually he did lie about some stuff, but THAT's bound up in another confidentiality agreement which really has nothing to do with this thread. God I hate politics.
 
The only solution is anarchy! I don't have enough firearms for anarchy. ;)
 
So the CA is the IFSC and in charge of all that goes on on the plane. But that certainly doesn't mean he can tell the FO to "put away your weapon, you're not playing FFDO today". As I said above, wearing the weapon on your belt doesn't make you John Wayne. Leaving it at the bottom of your flight back under your Jepps and Playboy nullifies a tool for which your have been trained to use. I used to fly with a crew of about twelve, all of whom were armed. Maybe that's why the idea of a gun in the cockpit doesn't bother me - with proper training of course.

I am also curious how CA authority applies to FAMs. If there is a high-level disturbance in the back - we're talking an extreme situation here - and for some reason the CA tells the FAMs to put it away they can't play FAM today, do they have to? I hope not. Especially with the FAMs, that is their full time job. Criticize their training all you want but they've certainly had more than the average pilot.
 
I know of a few guys online here that are "intimately familiar" with the program. Prehaps if he logs on during his trip *cough* he'd chime in and say something! ;)
 
Fins Up said:
So the CA is the IFSC and in charge of all that goes on on the plane. But that certainly doesn't mean he can tell the FO to "put away your weapon, you're not playing FFDO today".
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These are contradictory statements. Either the Captain is in command of his aircraft and his crew, or he isn't.
 
PCL_128 said:
These are contradictory statements. Either the Captain is in command of his aircraft and his crew, or he isn't.
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Yes it is contradictory. We are in new territory with this program. Honestly, I don't know exactly what the right answer is. Nobody wants a hero in the right seat putting holes in things and the wrong people. But I do think the cockpit and thus the aircraft are safer with this program.

I wonder if there were huge worries among the geneal population way back when law enforcement switched from billyclubs to guns. After all, you don't want some cowboy rookie shooting the wrong people.
 
Alrighty, I guess I have to scent-mark the thread again.

Captain's authority is a non-sequitor issue to the thread at hand. We can beat our chests as much as we like about ultimate captains authority and how well that's working for Korean Airlines and Air China, but that's another topic entirely.

Gaining permission to post this by the original author was actually meant to get people to think about what they'd do if the situation popped up one day on the line.

* Would you handle it like the captain?
* Do you care if there's an FFDO onboard?
* What procedures or changes can we make in order to avoid a repeat of this event?
* What role did the other crewmembers play in this?
* What could have been done different.
 
Some of your responses are flat out goofy.

For those of you who are FFDO's, go back and read your SOP.

For those of you who think the captain's word is final, can the captain tell the FFDO that he wants to wear the gun on his belt for the flight? Can he tell the FO he wants to see the gun? Can the captain tell the FO to put it in the cargo compartment?

I thought everything the captain says goes.... ??

The captain has NO say over the SOP of the FFDO.

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Why is this a fact? It is because every federal statute concerning security on an aircraft states clearly that the air carrier will adhere to that statute. Neither the air carrier, nor the Captain can usurp the authority of the statute.

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A smart captain will not view the FFDOs or FAMs role as anything but a asset.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Alrighty, I guess I have to scent-mark the thread again.

Captain's authority is a non-sequitor issue to the thread at hand. We can beat our chests as much as we like about ultimate captains authority and how well that's working for Korean Airlines and Air China, but that's another topic entirely.

Gaining permission to post this by the original author was actually meant to get people to think about what they'd do if the situation popped up one day on the line.

* Would you handle it like the captain?
* Do you care if there's an FFDO onboard?
* What procedures or changes can we make in order to avoid a repeat of this event?
* What role did the other crewmembers play in this?
* What could have been done different.
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I think it's unbelievably obvious that the Captain in question has little-man/regional-lifer syndrome. His comments about "you have a problem with regional pilots" makes that easy to see. I bet I could guess which airline this Captain works for, as there seems to be lots of similar problems with their more senior Captains. It's always seemed to me that the regional guys who claim the mainline pilots have something against them are really the ones with the prejudice against mainline pilots.

I don't think the FFDO could have done anything differently to make this go better, assuming his side of the story is indeed true, which I suspect it is. He handled himself professionally the entire time, and probably reacted a lot better than I would have with some pompous jerk pointing his finger in my chest. Kudos to the FFDO. He did the best he could under the circumstances.
 
PCL_128 said:
I don't think the FFDO could have done anything differently to make this go better.....
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I would consider shooting the captain on the spot. If I only use three rounds, that leaves me plenty to fight terrorists. I get rid of a problem captain and the seniority list moves up. What jury would convict me of a crime? I would be back on the schedule by Thanksgiving. How's that for an FFDO taking care of business?
 
calcapt said:
I would consider shooting the captain on the spot. If I only use three rounds, that leaves me plenty to fight terrorists. I get rid of a problem captain and the seniority list moves up. What jury would convict me of a crime? I would be back on the schedule by Thanksgiving. How's that for an FFDO taking care of business?
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Nice. I like your thinking.
 
calcapt said:
The captain is most certainly in command of his/her aircraft. A smart captain will set a tone in the cockpit that will allow the maximum protection for his aircraft with the tools at his disposal. Getting sucked into a shallow debate about who has more stripes on their sleeve and who is playing second fiddle to whom, is not productive and may actually detract from security as well as safety. A captain who is willing to step back and allow his crew to do their job (FFDOs included) will in all likelihood be more successful and command more respect. Great captains don't have to tell anyone they are in charge, it's already known.
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Sir, when we meet someday the beers are on me. Excellent post! Perfectly worded!
 
calcapt said:
I would consider shooting the captain on the spot. If I only use three rounds, that leaves me plenty to fight terrorists. I get rid of a problem captain and the seniority list moves up. What jury would convict me of a crime? I would be back on the schedule by Thanksgiving. How's that for an FFDO taking care of business?
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Blast away!
 
I think this is just like every other situation in life and has to do more with character than fars

As someone mentioned a good leader (applies not only to the cockpit but in life) is someone who commands respect and does not demand it and a good follower (FO,worker bee) respects their leader and is adament in following their lead.

My better leaders have had an ultimate command presense about them and through their actions they inspired you to follow and aspire to lead in a manner such as theirs.

In another token it is a good follower who can take the poor leader who feels the need to demand respect and and not lead by example and follow their orders word for word and do their job to the best of their professional ability and then when the day is done use the leaders example as part of how they themselfs will not want to lead when given the chance. Combine that with a few years of following and you are armed with countless personal examples of those you wish to emulate and those you wish to make it a point to not practice as they have.

Now getting back to the point.

1: a time when someone actually breaks into the cockpit and the ffdo needs to take action hasnt happened yet and probably the odds are 1:1,000,000,000 give or take a few zeros.

2: If I am in that situation as an fo or the captain I want a complete and coordinated team effort.

3: As an FFDO (I am not one) you are probably the more qualified person to handle an immediate security threat at the time being than the captain is, you are not taking over his cockpit or undermining his authority you are just doing what needs to be done to best handle the situation at hand.

I am in no way saying a captain is not in complete command of his ship at all times because they certainly are however, a good captain should appreciate the immediate and correct action of one of his crewmembers to resolve an issue that requires immediate and correct attention. If I were an FFDO and had to overide captains authority to eliminate a threat in the cockpit I guess I would have to act now and answer later.

I am not the most poetic so I hope this made some sense and got the point which I was trying to make across
 
USMC-SGT said:
Now getting back to the point.

1: a time when someone actually breaks into the cockpit and the ffdo needs to take action hasnt happened yet and probably the odds are 1:1,000,000,000 give or take a few zeros.
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Try Feb 2002 on United Flight 855.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/02/07/argentina.plane/

One interview quoted the co-pilot that the only reason he hit him with the flat side of the crash axe instead of the sharp or pointy end was he didn't have room to get a swing except with the flat side. Had an FFDO been on board, he would have been a deadweight plug in that hole in the door.

Other than your minimization of the threat, I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.
 
I stand corrected. I posted hastily without due research as this was just one of those threads that i felt compelled to post. Thank you for the link as I think this will add to the thread.

Being former military the subject of security and leadership and leader subordinate relationships are near and dear to me
 
I agree with USMC-SGT. The key is that if we can all be mature, adult, responbile and professional about things, there shouldn't be a problem.
 
Fins Up said:
I agree with USMC-SGT. The key is that if we can all be mature, adult, responbile and professional about things, there shouldn't be a problem.
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Unfortunately in aviation there seems to be a disproportionate amount of people worried about the size of their wieners.
 
Honestly, I think we need to focus more on preventing people from getting access to the flight deck than what to do if/when they get there. We've established a "last line of defense" with FFDOs without really putting enough lines in the equation.

I do have to agree with Ethan on a lot of the FFDOs I've seen. Maybe it's b/c I'm based in a Southern city and he does a lot of flying in and out of another Southern city. Folks around here tend to lean towards the "have gun, will travel....and kick ass" mentality.
 
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