FFDO Story. What do you think?

kellwolf said:
That being said, I've had (okay, I've been FO on a flight thathas had) a string of condescending FFDOs. They'll board, not introduce themselves and stow their NDB. There have been at LEAST three flights in the past month that we had a FFDO JSing with their NDB and not known about it until after the flight.
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Oh, that's nothing. I had an FO (not a jumpseater, but my FO actually working the flight) who didn't tell me he was an FFDO. We flew outbound at night on a highspeed, and clearing security the next morning I saw him bypass the checkpoint. I asked him when I saw him on the other side how he cleared security. "Oh, I'm an FFDO. I don't have to go through security." This jackass was carrying on the flight the previous night and didn't even tell me. Needless to say, he got a piece of my mind. I doubt he'll overlook telling his Captains in the future.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think FOs should even be eligible for the FFDO program. I have a real problem with FOs "briefing" Captains on how security breaches will be handled in flight. Nobody should be briefing the Captain on how things will be done on his airplane.
 
Nah, you won't get flamed. The only folks who get flamed are the Gulfstream types!

BUT what I will say is that I don't have a problem at all with either the FO or the captain being an FFDO. Even if I was a captain and my fo was FFDO, big deal.

Performance of duty on the flight deck and activation of an FFDO are mutually exclusive.

If I'm skipper and someone comes crashing thru the cockpit door, I'd be more than happy for the FO to bust a cap or three into the guy.

The brief is a good thing. I've been briefed by an FO who is an FFDO on a number of occasions when I was jumpseating and it gave me direction on what to do if the shiznit hit the fan... No use me dying along with the terrorist if someone decided their chosen book and requisite voice-in-the-head said something about commandeering an aircraft and running it into an inanimate object.
 
PCL_128 said:
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think FOs should even be eligible for the FFDO program. I have a real problem with FOs "briefing" Captains on how security breaches will be handled in flight. Nobody should be briefing the Captain on how things will be done on his airplane.
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Sooo.. The guy who was a domestic 767 captain for several years, then decided to bid FO on a 777 for QOL is now not "qualified" to brief anyone? Don't the FAMs "brief" you on how they are going to handle a security breach on your aircraft? How about every time I brief the captain on my leg how I'm going to fly the departure and handle an abort? (SOP @ DAL.) I could also mention how the A line usually "briefs" the captain on how she is going to run the cabin. I'm sure you're not this type, but you sound like the crusty old captains at the regional I flew at who were afraid of their own shadows, and had to compensate by trying to emulate Robert Stack from "The High and the Mighty" right before John Wayne introduced "CRM" to his @ss.
 
I do brief every time it's my leg. I pretty much say, "In the event of a aborted takeoff, I'll keep control of the aircraft UNTIL YOU SAY 'My controls' and I also feel you on the controls."

It's probably a holdover from flying at Skyway where they emphasized a positive transfer of control no matter who was flying.
 
Eek....this thread's getting a little heavy on FFDO operational details for my tastes! And don't ask how I know this!
 
FFDO's have to keep current more than just yearly. Also, the training down there isn't just about using the pistol. It's also other training that could be very helpful. As posted above, we probably shoudln't get too specific here.

I think as the general population's knowledge of this program is increased, would-be assailants may think twice about trying to rush a cockpit. On the other hand I don't think the next terrorist attack will have anything to do with rushing the cockpit, or probably an airplane at all.

Yes there are some knuckleheads out there who shouldn't never touch a weapon. There are also some pilots out there who shouldn't be in an airplane. There are plenty of LEO's who also shouldn't have a weapon either.

As far as wearing the weapon in flight, I don't see that as a John Wayne thing at all. It's not going to do you any good if it's buried in your back behind you.

I'm not an FFDO yet, but I will be by Spring.
 
BobDDuck said:
In my view (and this is just MY view) the money could have been better spent designing better primary and secondary barriers, increasing passenger screening and providing more air marshals. The FAM program's SOLE job is to protect flights. A pilots SOLE job should be to fly the airplane.
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A BIG AMEN! A secondary barrier should have been legislated the day after 9-11.

EL AL carries their security team in the cabin where they'll do the most good. No FFDOs required or desired at El Al. And they KNOW airline security. They have to.
 
So given we've only heard one side of the story, who does the FFDO report this to (since if the facts as presented are true it probably needs reporting).

- Professional Standards?
- TSA?
- Jumpseat Committee?

Professional standards, as I understand it is just an intra-union thing, so if it's not ALPA, no dice.
TSA - well thats making a federal case out of it (literally) since if you don't push it nothing will happen the TSA being close to the most inept organisation in government at this time, and if you do push it some gung-ho TSA'er will decide the captain needs a good 30 years in the Federal pen. to think things over.
It's not really a jumpseat issue, really, sort of, but it seems the best route to address the issue.

ANybody got any other ideas?
 
It's been reported to the appropriate people.

However, it's been sanitized and redacted by the author in order to serve as a learning opportunity.
 
PCL_128 said:
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think FOs should even be eligible for the FFDO program. I have a real problem with FOs "briefing" Captains on how security breaches will be handled in flight. Nobody should be briefing the Captain on how things will be done on his airplane.
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LOL-then you wouldn't like to be working at a certain regional where they teach the FO's to brief, on their legs, whether THEY want ice/ignition/single engine taxi, etc.


I think the regional captain had a little hidden bitterness about the legacy captain.
 
Cptnchia said:
Sooo.. The guy who was a domestic 767 captain for several years, then decided to bid FO on a 777 for QOL is now not "qualified" to brief anyone? Don't the FAMs "brief" you on how they are going to handle a security breach on your aircraft? How about every time I brief the captain on my leg how I'm going to fly the departure and handle an abort? (SOP @ DAL.) I could also mention how the A line usually "briefs" the captain on how she is going to run the cabin. I'm sure you're not this type, but you sound like the crusty old captains at the regional I flew at who were afraid of their own shadows, and had to compensate by trying to emulate Robert Stack from "The High and the Mighty" right before John Wayne introduced "CRM" to his @ss.
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There's a big difference between these kinds of briefings. If I were to brief the Captain on how I would handle an engine failure out of a specific airport on my leg ("we'll return to runway 27R, yada, yada, yada...), then the Captain has every bit of authority to say "no, actually I'd prefer if you did it this way instead..." The Captain can't really tell the FFDO that he doesn't like the plan laid out in the briefing and wants him to do it a different way. For instance, the Captain can't really tell the FFDO that he wants him to keep his weapon in the locked holster until there's a security problem. The FFDO might have a problem with that and report that the Captain was interfering with his duties as an FFDO.

I'm no "old crusty" regional Captain. I'm now an FO at a major, so I'm speaking this opinion from the viewpoint of an FO and as a former Captain. As an FO, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling the Captain how I would be handling security issues on his airplane (he is the ISC, after all), and as a Captain, I wouldn't really appreciate it. That's why I haven't finished the application process for the FFDO program. I started it prior to leaving Pinnacle, but now that I'm in the right seat, I'm going to wait until upgrading in a few years.
 
Actually, your second paragraph point is correct. The Captain is the ISC and as such, the FFDO works for him. Its the Captain, not the FFDO who is the final authority on inflight security.
 
Velocipede said:
Actually, your second paragraph point is correct. The Captain is the ISC and as such, the FFDO works for him. Its the Captain, not the FFDO who is the final authority on inflight security.
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I'd like to politely advise you that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, this post, and the previous couple in this thread
 
Certain security issues, Yes. And quite frankly there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than refusing to fly the flight yourself, in which case you would most likely just be replaced.

FFDO's have received specific training to deal with specific situations. You have not.

In the same sense, try telling the FAM that you are in charge of the flight and he is to ask you or an FA before initiating action. That's simply not the way it works.

My best advise is to apply for the training yourself, in which case I'm willing to guarantee that you will no longer complain about it.
 
lancair1 said:
Certain security issues, Yes. And quite frankly there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than refusing to fly the flight yourself, in which case you would most likely just be replaced.
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And there we have it. Someone who I assume is an FFDO admitting that he feels the Captain isn't truly in command of his own aircraft. This is exactly the problem I have with this program. The Captain should never play second fiddle to anyone else in his crew, whether they happen to have a gun or not.

My best advise is to apply for the training yourself, in which case I'm willing to guarantee that you will no longer complain about it.
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I'll apply for training after I upgrade in a few years, and not a day before. Until then, I look forward to flying with well-trained Captains that are FFDOs.
 
PCL_128 said:
...the Captain isn't truly in command of his own aircraft. This is exactly the problem I have with this program. The Captain should never play second fiddle to anyone else in his crew, whether they happen to have a gun or not.
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The captain is most certainly in command of his/her aircraft. A smart captain will set a tone in the cockpit that will allow the maximum protection for his aircraft with the tools at his disposal. Getting sucked into a shallow debate about who has more stripes on their sleeve and who is playing second fiddle to whom, is not productive and may actually detract from security as well as safety. A captain who is willing to step back and allow his crew to do their job (FFDOs included) will in all likelihood be more successful and command more respect. Great captains don't have to tell anyone they are in charge, it's already known.
 
PCL_128 said:
And there we have it. Someone who I assume is an FFDO admitting that he feels the Captain isn't truly in command of his own aircraft. This is exactly the problem I have with this program. The Captain should never play second fiddle to anyone else in his crew, whether they happen to have a gun or not.
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And that's exactly the problem with some FFDOs. They think the badge gives them the authority to run the show. Sadly, they are mistaken. The Captain the final command authority and the Inflight Security Coordinator.
 
Yeah, CA is ISC, but he'd be stupid not to be open to input from the FO if he's an FFDO.

As far as briefing the ice, ignition, etc, that's the PF's job, not necessarily the CA. Now, the CA should be able to overule the FO IF he's able to give a good reason. I've had CAs tell me "Nah, let's not flex" with no good reason not to other than they don't like doing it. Now, if you can tell me stuff about climb rates, runway lengths, etc, then I'll agree that a full thrust t/o might be better. Plus, I might have missed the "windshear advisories in effect" on the ATIS or some other similar issue. If you've got a good reason, I'm more than happy to listen. "Because I said so" never worked for my parents, it's sure as hell not gonna work for anyone else.
 
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