Festivus of Merger season

[Stryder]

Ah. Then the union has only obligations to you, and not to the profession. Excellent! There certainly are disadvantages to being in a union, the major one being, that it is not all about you.

Someday, I hope, you can see that focusing on the profession is more important.

Well I can tell you do not understand what we are talking about. The union has an obligation to its pilots and the profession. If we have a good contract then the airline will have to staff properly to cover all flying. Right now we are understaffed and people are being taken below their min days off involuntarily. We are not talking about people going below min days to cover bad planning or under staffing on managements part. We are talking about people who would like to make some extra money by picking up a trip if they want to, not because they have to or because the company is running short. If we have a contract that says the company has to have x amount of staff for x amount of flying then it doesn't matter because they have to staff it that way. Just because there is a trip there in open time doesn't mean that the company is running short. People call in sick, go on fmla, have vacations, etc etc. So if a pilot sees a trip in open time they wouldn't mind doing then let them. I really don't understand your problem with this. Lets say I sit home reserve for 4 days straight and I don't get used and the 5th day is one of my days off. If I see a day trip on that day off and I would like to pick it up at extra pay and above guarantee then I should be able to. Its not helping the company keep the airline understaffed if we force them to staff it properly.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well I can tell you do not understand what we are talking about. The union has an obligation to its pilots and the profession. If we have a good contract then the airline will have to staff properly to cover all flying. Right now we are understaffed and people are being taken below their min days off involuntarily. We are not talking about people going below min days to cover bad planning or under staffing on managements part. We are talking about people who would like to make some extra money by picking up a trip if they want to, not because they have to or because the company is running short. If we have a contract that says the company has to have x amount of staff for x amount of flying then it doesn't matter because they have to staff it that way. Just because there is a trip there in open time doesn't mean that the company is running short. People call in sick, go on fmla, have vacations, etc etc. So if a pilot sees a trip in open time they wouldn't mind doing then let them. I really don't understand your problem with this. Lets say I sit home reserve for 4 days straight and I don't get used and the 5th day is one of my days off. If I see a day trip on that day off and I would like to pick it up at extra pay and above guarantee then I should be able to. Its not helping the company keep the airline understaffed if we force them to staff it properly.

God, would someone throw a pie?

"Well I can tell you do not understand what we are talking about."
Let's find out

"If we have a good contract then the airline will have to staff properly to cover all flying."
Right. My company has that. We have done it our way, we think it's a good way. Which one are you? Pinnacle? Colgan?

"Right now we are understaffed and people are being taken below their min days off involuntarily."
Yeah no kidding hu? Forgive me if we don't buy into how you've been running things so far.

"We are not talking about people going below min days to cover bad planning or under staffing on managements part."
Yes we are, that's what min days are, that's what the current argument is about. Are you sure you've been following along?

"We are talking about people who would like to make some extra money by picking up a trip if they want to, not because they have to or because the company is running short."
That's fine. I do that, we at Mesaba don't mind that. We make sure only 2% (max) goes to open time, min day of 10 off. So we tell the company to put the open time out there

"We are talking about people who would like to make some extra money by picking up a trip if they want to, not because they have to or because the company is running short."
You are isolating the argument in hopes of making me follow along on your logic train. The problem with your methodology is, and this is important, how low do you let them go. THAT is the argument. Erase those other things in your mind and proceed forward.

"If we have a contract that says the company has to have x amount of staff for x amount of flying then it doesn't matter because they have to staff it that way."
Ok, but no one here is proposing that exactly that sort of language. In fact, since I'm taking the time to write back to this jumble of phrases, you do some research and tell me which airlines have anything in their contract in exactly or close to what you are proposing. What we are talking about, is how to influence the staffing indirectly.

"Just because there is a trip there in open time doesn't mean that the company is running short. " Exactly. That is a true statement. It could be open because I dropped a trip or the last leg of my trip.

"People call in sick, go on fmla, have vacations, etc etc." Yes, not my first airline, nor is it my first year. But thank you for the review

"So if a pilot sees a trip in open time they wouldn't mind doing then let them." I agree, I do that too, as long as it doesn't go below 10 days off a month. Not 6, not 4. 10. Again, this is what we are discussing. THIS is what we are jumping around the firebush describing. What you are trying to describe, quite completely, is what the definition of open time is.

"I really don't understand your problem with this." Maybe it's because you're so involved in reinventing open time you've missed my problem. Well, lets face it, you've missed the entire reasoning behind part of our contract.

/side note
Good time to break, assuming you are all still with me. Start off with this next time Stryder, because in this long paragraph, this is the only thing you actually needed to ask. I understand you don't understand my problem with 4-10 min days off, I don't know if you understood that's what your problem was/is
/end note

"Lets say I sit home reserve for 4 days straight and I don't get used and the 5th day is one of my days off. If I see a day trip on that day off and I would like to pick it up at extra pay and above guarantee then I should be able to. "
AH HA! You've said it succinctly. I agree. As long as you aren't going below 10 days do it. In the contract, if we say, Stryder is the only one that gets to do this, fine. Outside of fiction, if 30% of the pilot group does this a little while, then they suddenly stop, panic ensues. Staffing should not depend on the desperation or poverty of the reserve pilots. Sorry.

Everyone likes passing around this personal choice crap. You made a choice to come do this stupid job for no pay. In many jobs you can work as much as you want forever. I know, I did it at my other jobs before the airline gig. If I wasn't working 80 hours a week I was doing something wrong. You just can't do that here at an airline. Goto 135 unscheduled or unplanned or whatever where its no monthly limit and 1400 hours a year. You made a personal choice to come to an airline, safety, fatigue, profession comes before a individual pilot's poor planning.

"Its not helping the company keep the airline understaffed if we force them to staff it properly."
Read that again and rephrase. I'm sure that's not actually what you intended to say. Are you saying (reading the end of the sentence then the beginning) we can force them to staff the airline properly and then that won't help them. God I can't even get through this.

Higney85. It looks like this gentlemens plan is to tell the company what # of pilots we can staff and what we can't. Will the company bite on that one?

 

[Stryder]

Higney85. It looks like this gentlemens plan is to tell the company what # of pilots we can staff and what we can't. Will the company bite on that one?

Wow your responses are very arrogant and condescending. I am going to assume since kellwolf is friends with you that you just talk like this on the message boards and not like this in real life because kellwolf is good people. And yes we had that in TA1. The company could only leave a very small percentage of flying in open time. That would guarantee that there wouldn't be a lot of open time and it also said that 10 day off min is the actual min. You could not be JM or extended below 10 days off. In doing this the company would have had to hire more pilots and there would have been on average another 20-25 lines created per base per seat. If we get that back then there wont be a lot of open time. So pilots will have more days off and reserves wont be used like they are now. Your entire argument against this is saying the company is planning on people going to work on their days off. In the previous TA they would have had to hire to staff it the way we wanted to in the contract. If it is in the contract then the company cant run short and hope that people will pick things up. Don't know any other way to say it.

 

[higney85]

Jynx- I have read all the stuff posted and between you are stryder. The point of the matter is this.... At Pinnacle the idea of a union telling a pilot what he CAN'T work on his off days is not the consensus of any that I have talked with and have yet to see a single opposing view of any pinnacle pilot on any web board. This may be the first cultural difference we will need to work through because it truly seems that we are night and day.

 

[Stryder]

Jynx- I have read all the stuff posted and between you are stryder. The point of the matter is this.... At Pinnacle the idea of a union telling a pilot what he CAN'T work on his off days is not the consensus of any that I have talked with and have yet to see a single opposing view of any pinnacle pilot on any web board. This may be the first cultural difference we will need to work through because it truly seems that we are night and day.

I dont think its a cultural difference. I seriously doubt the majority of the mesaba pilots feel the same way and want the union telling them what they can and can't do with their days off.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Wow your responses are very arrogant and condescending.

Actually, exacerbated. I'm tired of running around the bend on this little issue, ESPECIALLY when it's one long run on making a buffet of intertwined ideas. Kell is sending me the language of TA1, my hope is that I can read through most of that before Nov 15th (if we get a TA).

I'm not gonna go line by line with you on you're last, I've said my feelings on the subject contritely.
"Your entire argument against this is saying the company is planning on people going to work on their days off. In the previous TA they would have had to hire to staff it the way we wanted to in the contract." Negatron partially. Your company culture will not change over night, pilots will continue working themselves to the min days (Some of our pilots will do the same), and the company will learn to adjust their staffing off that eventually. If you let them have a min of 6, instead of 10 or better, you are screwing yourself.

You said earlier, that "they" (pinnacle?) would have had to hire [more pilots] the way we (pinnacle pilot group?) wanted in TA1. That's fine, except above you said, "If we have a contract that says the company has to have x amount of staff for x amount of flying". So which is your language Stryder? Is it, "[This] contract that says the company has to have x amount of staff for x amount of flying" or does it say, "The company could only leave a very small percentage of flying in open time. That would guarantee that there wouldn't be a lot of open time and it also said that 10 day off min is the actual min."? To me you just said back to me (second time) exactly the language we already have in Mesaba's current contract. To me, the second time you quantified how you would address pinnacle staffing levels, you illustrated an indirect way of pushing staffing levels higher that we already employ at this company. I can read what you say and reply. That is the limit of my super powers.

I dont think its a cultural difference. I seriously doubt the majority of the mesaba pilots feel the same way and want the union telling them what they can and can't do with their days off.

I haven't met any Mesaba pilots yet who want less than a 10 day min. That being said I don't know all the Mesaba pilots. I'd say it's completely cultural.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Jynx- I have read all the stuff posted and between you are stryder. The point of the matter is this.... At Pinnacle the idea of a union telling a pilot what he CAN'T work on his off days is not the consensus of any that I have talked with and have yet to see a single opposing view of any pinnacle pilot on any web board. This may be the first cultural difference we will need to work through because it truly seems that we are night and day.

Yeah, one thing Mesaba has had to learn is that every company believes that their training department is the best. Naturally, and quite in line with the earlier stated logic, I do think our training department kicks lot of butt and takes a lot of names. I put our safety record up as proof. Both Pinnacle and Colgan have openly stated (pilot to pilot and manager to manager) that we are gonna have to "bring ourselves up" to them. I don't know what to say to all that. We think we've done a great job, we think our accident rate is proof of it. It drives us crosseyed to have people tell us we have to do things the Colgan or Pinnacle way when we don't understand why your way is better. Even worse, we've all been taught that "we can't afford to be Colgan or Pinnacle".

We have not even scratched the surface of cultural differences. It's gonna take a long time.

 

[Stryder]

I am at pinnacle. All of my points are referring to the future TA or the TA1 that failed, NOT what we currently have. What we currently have is broken. I believe that the open time and x number of pilots to be the same thing. If we only allow the company to put 2% of the total flying into open time and they cant force us to work on our days off then they will have to have to hire x amount of pilots to cover the flying. They wont be able to plan on people working below the min day. Even if a few people do it they cant plan on it being like that all the time. Pinnacle loves its reserve pilots and forcing them to make more lines will force them to hire more people. Hiring more pilots and getting more people on board is a good thing for the profession and industry.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I am at pinnacle. All of my points are referring to the future TA or the TA1 that failed, NOT what we currently have. What we currently have is broken. I believe that the open time and x number of pilots to be the same thing. If we only allow the company to put 2% of the total flying into open time and they cant force us to work on our days off then they will have to have to hire x amount of pilots to cover the flying. They wont be able to plan on people working below the min day. Even if a few people do it they cant plan on it being like that all the time. Pinnacle loves its reserve pilots and forcing them to make more lines will force them to hire more people. Hiring more pilots and getting more people on board is a good thing for the profession and industry.

So, your feeling is, max of 2% flying time to open time (Mesaba system), and BECAUSE there are so few open hours it won't matter if 12 or 15 guys at one base (junior base, least paid pilots therefor and generally the ones most broke) go down to 6 days off because it will be such a small number of pilots against the whole?

 

[jynxyjoe]

On a personal note, it's VERY difficult for me to be optimistic about anything. Like the XJ guys, I was pretty psyched the first time our management said "We'll get it done by this date," too. After hearing it 4 or 5 times, it starts to lose its luster. Now, if they start agreeing to things like compensation, scheduling and retirement and insurance, things may be different. It's hard to get excited about dues check-off being TA'ed, though.....

Dude I completely sympathize. I'm still looking forward to Best Buy stock boy, however, starting dec 1st I get that snapback and my life gets a lot easier. Up till now as an FO I was able to rationalize Taco Bell nearby my home, with eventual climb to manager, because I'd make similar pay with home every night. GF is happy, I'm happy. Couple years, re enter the industry.

I'm about to make a jump to something closer to my first year CA pay at Mesaba and that helps a lot. The FO job is so low stress I'm kind of addicted to it. Now with this merger I have the possibility of a couple % raise in pay too? Now I'm a FO making 1st year Saab CA pay? I know it's shooting low, but I've learned to do that. The merger could goto hell, we force our contract onto Colgan, and my contract is still intact and life is good. Choice two, merger goes well, no dump and flush, I get a pay raise (and shafted on SLI) and life is good.

Last year at this time I was seriously considering leaving the gf behind, renting out the house for 1700 a month, going back to folks house and commuting. I was close I just fell too deep, a choice that was rewarded. I'm still a negative ass right now, but once this pay comes up I'm gonna smile a bit more. Who knows, maybe I'll make a real bad move and propose.

 

[Stryder]

So, your feeling is, max of 2% flying time to open time (Mesaba system), and BECAUSE there are so few open hours it won't matter if 12 or 15 guys at one base (junior base, least paid pilots therefor and generally the ones most broke) go down to 6 days off because it will be such a small number of pilots against the whole?

Yeah that is fine. Pilots need to be responsible about their rest and fatigue issues, just like we are now. I know several fo's and captains here (last year since its impossible now the way we are flying) that sit ready reserve late at night. They are at the airport from 19:00 to about 20:30 and they go home and don't come back till the next night to sit again. On their last night they would ask crew scheduling to extend them into their day off with a high speed. They would do that 3 times a month and their days off would be 7 which is the lowest the company can take you to. So these pilots would fly about 20 hours a month and credit about 110. Not a bad deal. Come to the airport 4 days in a row for about an hour and a half, do 3 overnights for the month, and get paid 110 hours of credit. That is a great way for guys who just live off guarantee to earn some good money and that is the reason we all come to work: money. You are not fatigued. You are not wore out. Some people don't want to do it even if it pays more. Some people do. I would prefer the pilots are allowed to make an intelligent informed choice then the union telling them what to do.

 

[higney85]

Yeah that is fine. Pilots need to be responsible about their rest and fatigue issues, just like we are now. I know several fo's and captains here (last year since its impossible now the way we are flying) that sit ready reserve late at night. They are at the airport from 19:00 to about 20:30 and they go home and don't come back till the next night to sit again. On their last night they would ask crew scheduling to extend them into their day off with a high speed. They would do that 3 times a month and their days off would be 7 which is the lowest the company can take you to. So these pilots would fly about 20 hours a month and credit about 110. Not a bad deal. Come to the airport 4 days for about an hour and a half, do 3 overnights, and get paid 110 hours of credit. You are not fatigued. You are not wore out. Some people don't want to do it even if it pays more. Some people do. I would prefer the pilots are allowed to make an intelligent informed choice then the union telling them what to do.

Have we met?

 

[Stryder]

Have we met?

on more than one occasion. Last time we flew we had the LGA overnight and we went to time square after being "lost" for a bit. :bandit:

 

[higney85]

on more than one occasion. Last time we flew we had the LGA overnight and we went to time square after being "lost" for a bit. :bandit:

O yes... Glad to see you on here. We should do it all again, but we will leave the FA at the hotel.

 

[Stryder]

O yes... Glad to see you on here. We should do it all again, but we will leave the FA at the hotel.

yeah finally decided to join the boards. This one seemed to be the most civilized and didn't seem like a lot of anonymous people spouting crazy stuff (plus its free!). I have been a long time lurker though. And yes the people on the subways can smell fear and she wreaked of it.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Yeah that is fine. Pilots need to be responsible about their rest and fatigue issues, just like we are now. I know several fo's and captains here (last year since its impossible now the way we are flying) that sit ready reserve late at night. They are at the airport from 19:00 to about 20:30 and they go home and don't come back till the next night to sit again. On their last night they would ask crew scheduling to extend them into their day off with a high speed. They would do that 3 times a month and their days off would be 7 which is the lowest the company can take you to. So these pilots would fly about 20 hours a month and credit about 110. Not a bad deal. Come to the airport 4 days in a row for about an hour and a half, do 3 overnights for the month, and get paid 110 hours of credit. That is a great way for guys who just live off guarantee to earn some good money and that is the reason we all come to work: money. You are not fatigued. You are not wore out. Some people don't want to do it even if it pays more. Some people do. I would prefer the pilots are allowed to make an intelligent informed choice then the union telling them what to do.

7 days off hu? Yeah you can keep that. I have 12 off and 107 for last month, and that's with stupid training thrown in there. Training isn't stupid, MSP in November is stupid, that's all.

I understand why the pilot wants to do that to themselves, the union being onboard with that reasoning is soul crushing. I think it's much wiser to cap that sort of ambition, for the good of all of us. If you guys really have a hard on for avenues for pilots to screw themselves I can probably still find my old Colgan schedules of 150 +/-5 credit hours with 4 or so days off. Of course, as I said earlier, I don't really need a union to do that.

 

[surreal1221]

Oh boy...now we're starting to see patterned bargaining taking us backwards...

 

[Stryder]

7 days off hu? Yeah you can keep that. I have 12 off and 107 for last month, and that's with stupid training thrown in there. Training isn't stupid, MSP in November is stupid, that's all.

I understand why the pilot wants to do that to themselves, the union being onboard with that reasoning is soul crushing. I think it's much wiser to cap that sort of ambition, for the good of all of us. If you guys really have a hard on for avenues for pilots to screw themselves I can probably still find my old Colgan schedules of 150 +/-5 credit hours with 4 or so days off. Of course, as I said earlier, I don't really need a union to do that.

Oh I will be happy to take it. Lets see I only had 7 "off" days. However I was at home everyday those months during the day. I only went in to work to sit a few hours every 4 days at night and on the 5th I would do a highspeed that would take me into my day off and I was done by 8am on that day. I did 3 overnights, all highspeeds, and was at home nearly the entire month. Nothing soul crushing about it. I loved it and was very happy to credit 110hrs while doing just 3 overnights during the month and some rrls. You are comparing apples to oranges. I am sure you have a schedule from colgan that has that but I bet you flew almost all of it. I however barely touched an airplane those times and was able to credit 110 simply by flying 3 overnights. How much did you have to fly to get that 106 hrs of credit? I am glad you are concerned for my welfare and I appreciate it but it is not needed. I wish I could go back to that schedule. Now i am crediting 100hrs a month but I am flying 90 of those and having to burn extension refusals on the first of the month. Times have changed. Limiting open time is a big part of the next contract for me.

 

[higney85]

min days off must be golden- period, end of statement. limiting open time is a must. The limiting of pilots picking up remaining open time is NOT something pinnacle pilots want to see.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Oh I will be happy to take it. Lets see I only had 7 "off" days. However I was at home everyday those months during the day. I only went in to work to sit a few hours every 4 days at night and on the 5th I would do a highspeed that would take me into my day off and I was done by 8am on that day. I did 3 overnights, all highspeeds, and was at home nearly the entire month. Nothing soul crushing about it. I loved it and was very happy to credit 110hrs while doing just 3 overnights during the month and some rrls. You are comparing apples to oranges. I am sure you have a schedule from colgan that has that but I bet you flew almost all of it. I however barely touched an airplane those times and was able to credit 110 simply by flying 3 overnights. How much did you have to fly to get that 106 hrs of credit? I am glad you are concerned for my welfare and I appreciate it but it is not needed. I wish I could go back to that schedule. Now i am crediting 100hrs a month but I am flying 90 of those and having to burn extension refusals on the first of the month. Times have changed. Limiting open time is a big part of the next contract for me.

Well I see your lifestyle desires are aligned very much with my buddy in the 135 world. I don't see anything wrong with by itself. I do think, from a pilot group standpoint, that I'll say no to going below 10 days to help you (and maybe 5 other guys at each base MAYBE) get a dream schedule where you aren't flying and can be home every night. The way you talk about it, in the past tense, it doesn't even sound like you are getting this dream schedule now. There might even be an argument for it in my mind, and the pilot group, if that was a reoccurring schedule and enough people could get it.

As it stands now, thanks to PBS and the loss of build up lines, we have 8-10 CA at each base missing out on 1G a check. Fo's are losing less than that. So for now, I think getting their pay back up is higher on my priority list than helping 6 guys (max) at each base get their dream schedule a couple months out of the year.

To answer your question earlier I flew 71:40. Two trips has no deadheads at all, the others, had 2 dh a piece.