jynxyjoe
Queso King
Even if it would improve the profession? To be clear we are not limiting open time pickup, unless you go below 10 days a month.
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Even if it would improve the profession? To be clear we are not limiting open time pickup, unless you go below 10 days a month.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
How would limiting pilots picking up open time improve the profession?
Joe.... even DELTA (ALPA contract) allows you to pick up time to FAR limitations.
If a major works that way, I'm happy to allow a line pilot to pick up to what ever he thinks is legal and safe for himself. The company doing it, heck no!
Joe.... even DELTA (ALPA contract) allows you to pick up time to FAR limitations.
If a major works that way, I'm happy to allow a line pilot to pick up to what ever he thinks is legal and safe for himself. The company doing it, heck no!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
One disadvantage of not being a union rep is I don't have the Delta contract or really any other. I'm taking your word on it. Go ahead and post that part from the Delta contract. I don't know if Doug has enough time to copy paste some pdf.
I don't believe a 2% gate on open time is enough, if you have the math to prove it thats fine. From personal experience 10 day min and 2% works very well over here and I believe it to be a step backward to take less. I invite you to prove me wrong with some matters of fact. Fact's can sway opinion, maybe the repeating the obvious works for others.
It's a no vote from me otherwise.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Hey, is this the Delta contract that took the pension or the Delta (Northwest) that still has the pensions?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I could do a scientific study, but honestly I don't have the time or the honest desire to do it. I will make a WAG that is probably pretty close. The guys at 9E right now being taken below min days off are NOT doing it voluntarily. Have I done it myself in the past? You bet your ass I have. I was a first year FO with a 10 day off line, and I needed money. I'm quite happy our contract didn't forbid me picking up that day. It kept the heat on in the house. Sure, it's nice to say "We're helping the profession," but when you've got an FO that's eating Ramen wrapped in a blanket because the electric bill was too high on the month he got a 10 day off 75 hour credit line, it kinda rings hollow. We can complain all day about "what ifs," but I'm with Stryder and Ken. I honestly don't think the guys that will voluntarily go below min days off are that high, but it's nice to know the option is there if you need it. Now, the senior guys that will pick up open time during their 16 days off a month at 200%? They're all over the place. THAT'S where the company will make up their short staffing issues. If you've got min days off in a month of 11 for ALL pilots, I'd wager you can count on one hand the number of those guys that will voluntarily go below 11.
Now, as for back room deals.....well, any pilot that does that knows what they're doing and should know what their getting into. If it's not enforced by the contract, you'll always be at the mercy of management. It's that way now, and it will be that way with a new contract. To expect that the contract will cover EVERY situation is incorrect and naive. If someone wants to go below min days off (within FARs and rest rules), I think it should be their choice and not forbidden by the contract. If they start wheeling and dealing to get it.....well, now they're in uncharted territory and going off on their own. When it comes to comments being deleted, that "print screen" option is your best friend. It's why I keep the original pairings printed out just in case scheduling attempts to hose me down the line (or in case I need proof during one of the illustrious "fact finding" meetings). When it comes to people saying "We'll talk to them" for disciplining schedulers, we can't expect our contract to cover discipline of other departments. It sucks, I know. There's one scheduler here that shoulda been canned a LOOOONG time ago for the way they treat pilots on the phone and sheer attitude alone. I've written her up multiple times myself, and I know other pilots have as well. She's still here, and there's not much I can do about it.
Now, as for back room deals.....well, any pilot that does that knows what they're doing and should know what their getting into. If it's not enforced by the contract, you'll always be at the mercy of management. It's that way now, and it will be that way with a new contract. To expect that the contract will cover EVERY situation is incorrect and naive. If someone wants to go below min days off (within FARs and rest rules), I think it should be their choice and not forbidden by the contract. If they start wheeling and dealing to get it.....well, now they're in uncharted territory and going off on their own. When it comes to comments being deleted, that "print screen" option is your best friend. It's why I keep the original pairings printed out just in case scheduling attempts to hose me down the line (or in case I need proof during one of the illustrious "fact finding" meetings). When it comes to people saying "We'll talk to them" for disciplining schedulers, we can't expect our contract to cover discipline of other departments. It sucks, I know. There's one scheduler here that shoulda been canned a LOOOONG time ago for the way they treat pilots on the phone and sheer attitude alone. I've written her up multiple times myself, and I know other pilots have as well. She's still here, and there's not much I can do about it.
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
Good point there Joe!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I've said for years I don't know why or how you guys go into this industry with a family. I saw what the industry paid and I bailed out for a while until I could get a quick upgrade. I don't know what to tell you in response to your query. My immediate, unfeeling, reaction is to ask what the hell kind of profession is this that guys can't pay their flipping heating bill? Why are we, as pilots, taking these jobs? Is backwards pattern bargaining going to help a God damn thing? Isn't there some way we can either up everyone's pay or up the min credit each month?
Thinking of you and your family freezing in the house, I say forget the profession and pick up the open time, work what you have to work. Family has to come first, above contract, above profession, above your fellow worker*. If you couldn't get it done I'd say move in here with your family until you've got some cash built up again. There's no shame in getting help from the community, I may be in your place someday as well.
I refused to enter this "profession" years back because I saw the pay. I re entered when the getting was good and I was mostly debt free. Other than the mortgage I am debt free. My perspective on, "I have to fly to pay my bills" is different than (I'd guess) 90% of pilots. While that may be bad news, because I've never walked in your shoes, the good news is if this TA comes to a vote there will be 9 yes votes to my one no.
When the Mesaba guys get on a road show trying to polish up the TA, I'd suggest you use the "FO can't pay his bills" argument for what you all are proposing. Make some sort of "it's not bargaining backwards, it's increasing your flexibility as pilots." What you all have hoped for has happened, Kellwolf has shut me up on this issue. While I may not be convinced, I'm certainly done with this topic and I feel we've explored every avenue. My last words are of warning to everyone, your contract language is what management hangs you with for the next 5 years, be careful what you vote for.
*The only exception to that would be scabbing.
Stryder
Well-Known Member
well that is something pinnacle is bringing to the table. We have pbs and we have build up lines. I was just 3 away from holding one for november!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
That would be very welcomed here.
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
No doubt about it. If we still had bulid up lines here at Mesaba Id be pretty close to getting one. PBS to me is ok, but I like the other bidding system better