Female Afghan Pilot

[A Life Aloft]

blah, blah blah blah blah more b.s.

 

[killbilly]

Regardless, she purposely missed her flight back. I wonder how long a military training visa/contract allows someone to stay here while filing a political asylum?


She was expected to fly back and serve in a flying capacity. She is not in a place where she should be according to her itinerary. It's either desertion or dereliction of duty? Some military guys can chime in about the term used for when you finish training and are expected to show up somewhere but don't.

Stop it.

You don't get to enjoy the freedoms of this country and then decry a fellow aviator seeking those same freedoms when they face the kind of adversity that you will never face.

At least she signed up to wear a uniform. At least she wants to fight for THIS country.

Just stop. You're embarrassing us.




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[knot4u]

Give her a temporary visa that will allow her to work in the field we've trained her for, if she can't cut the mustard then we can argue about it. You pilots, thinking so much of the time you forget to reflect.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Stop it.

You don't get to enjoy the freedoms of this country and then decry a fellow aviator seeking those same freedoms when they face the kind of adversity that you will never face.

At least she signed up to wear a uniform. At least she wants to fight for THIS country.

Just stop. You're embarrassing us.




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I'll let this threadgo, but just know I legally immigrated here from a country that touches the country she's from. And I can assure you had we not moved, I wouldn't be able to be a pilot there (medical reasons among others). That is all

 

[MikeD]

Stop it.

You don't get to enjoy the freedoms of this country and then decry a fellow aviator seeking those same freedoms when they face the kind of adversity that you will never face.

At least she signed up to wear a uniform. At least she wants to fight for THIS country.

Some of the issues though, is in theory....due to our intervention over there.......Afghanistan shouldn't be a country where people need to seek asylum from. You know, the USA having saved the day and all over there.

Devils advocate-wise, taking a deserter from the Afghan Air Force whom we are training and trying to create and prop up as an effective fighting force, doesn't place our foreign policies with regards to what we've been doing with Afghanistan in a very positive or effective light, does it? Afghanistan........everything is fine! Nothing to see here! They're all little Americans just waiting to burst out!

None of which is her fault or changes the reality of her situation, or what she would face going back to Afghanistan. But it's a definite political Catch 22 that's far above her paygrade. And one that really puts egg on the face of the USA.

 

[Boris Badenov]

At least she wants to fight for THIS country.

Ugh. I'm hesitant to wade in to this at all because of course I'm sympathetic to her plight (as I suspect everyone is to one degree or another). But I think it's maybe worth mentioning that fighting for THIS country seems to have been Plan B. I don't have any answers on this one. Obviously, it's very brave to step up and risk everything that she's risked already. On the other hand, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean very much if you get to reassess based on the current climate.

My provisional take is that she's neither a hero nor a jerk. More like she wanted to be a hero, carry some kind of torch, and then realized that the realities precluded her from following through. Or, if you prefer, chickened out. Probably a little bit of both. My lack of condemnation comes from the suspicion that I would do the same thing in her shoes. My willingness to knock down the pedestal comes from the recognition that "hero" quite often means, maybe sometimes even requires, not giving a damn about the consequences. *shrug*.

I'm not a hero. Damned few of us are. It's like grade inflation. She's got plenty of company.

 

[MikeD]

Ugh. I'm hesitant to wade in to this at all because of course I'm sympathetic to her plight (as I suspect everyone is to one degree or another). But I think it's maybe worth mentioning that fighting for THIS country seems to have been Plan B. I don't have any answers on this one. Obviously, it's very brave to step up and risk everything that she's risked already. On the other hand, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean very much if you get to reassess based on the current climate.

My provisional take is that she's neither a hero nor a jerk. More like she wanted to be a hero, carry some kind of torch, and then realized that the realities precluded her from following through. Or, if you prefer, chickened out. Probably a little bit of both. My lack of condemnation comes from the suspicion that I would do the same thing in her shoes. My willingness to knock down the pedestal comes from the recognition that "hero" quite often means, maybe sometimes even requires, not giving a damn about the consequences. *shrug*.

I'm not a hero. Damned few of us are. It's like grade inflation. She's got plenty of company.

That's part of the whole conundrum. She's part of the military of an allied nation. If we were to take someone seeking asylum to what is supposedly a friendly nation to us, that doesn't say much for us having a successful foreign policy.

Worse, she's supposed to be one of those who is the solution to the problems in her home country. What further does it say if we help her desert from that responsibility to her nations military? A nation we are trying to help rebuild with people like her?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Yet we defend these a-holes over there.

Remember the US Army Sergeant who was brought up on charges and was going to be kicked out of the Army for beating up an Afghan militia commander who had kidnapped and raped a boy? The legal hell that guy went through in order to keep his career, in indefensible. Especially since there was a policy for our troops to not interfere in child sex crimes being committed by Afghan military/police and civilians.

Our own freaking government is complicit.

Story here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/30/u...cer-for-raping-boy-can-stay-in-army.html?_r=0

"A decorated United States Army sergeant who hit an American-backed Afghan commander for raping a boy will be allowed to remain in the military, a spokesman said Friday.

Sgt. First Class Charles Martland, a member of the Special Forces, had helped to beat up the Afghan militia commander, Abdul Rahman, in 2011 after he abducted a boy and kept him chained to his bed as a sex slave. Sergeant Martland later told Army officials that he and a Special Forces captain, Dan Quinn, “felt that morally we could no longer stand by” and allow the Afghan local police “to commit atrocities.”

After the episode, Captain Quinn was relieved of his command; he withdrew from Afghanistan and later left the military. But Sergeant Martland was put under an Army-wide review program that trims the number of its noncommissioned officers when their military records show performance or conduct that is “inconsistent” with standards.

An initial decision to forcibly discharge him by Nov. 1, 2015, was delayed; in March 2016, the Army said it had postponed the discharge decision again, until May 1, to allow time for Sergeant Martland to appeal.

The beating and its effect on the two men’s Army careers brought scrutiny to a policy of instructing American soldiers and Marines not to intervene in cases of child sex abuse by their Afghan allies.

In an article in the New York Times last year, the spokesman for the American command in Afghanistan, Col. Brian Tribus, said of the United States’ military policy, “Generally, allegations of child sexual abuse by Afghan military or police personnel would be a matter of domestic Afghan criminal law.”

He added that “there would be no express requirement that U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan report it.” An exception, he said, is when rape is being used as a weapon of war.


US Soldiers told to ignore child rape by Afghan allies (story here):


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/w...ld-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html

Wow @MikeD I'm horrified. I had no idea any of the above was happening. But not really surprised either, due to often times strict gender separation of Islamic culture, and the open access to those of your same gender. But there is simply no excuse for wide spread pedophilia. Inexcusable.

 

[Stone Cold]

That's part of the whole conundrum. She's part of the military of an allied nation. If we were to take someone seeking asylum to what is supposedly a friendly nation to us, that doesn't say much for us having a successful foreign policy.

Worse, she's supposed to be one of those who is the solution to the problems in her home country. What further does it say if we help her desert from that responsibility to her nations military? A nation we are trying to help rebuild with people like her?

How long is your contract valid if the government you work for stops paying you? How long is pilot training? According to the article, that's how long she hadn't been paid by her government.

In all honesty, how long do you wait for a government to keep their end of the deal before you're no longer a deserter? I don't know the answer but I guarantee you the US government would have a bunch of people "desert" if they didn't pay people for what I assume is 9-12 months minimum. I know I didn't do it out of the kindness of my heart.

 

[killbilly]

I'll let this threadgo, but just know I legally immigrated here from a country that touches the country she's from. And I can assure you had we not moved, I wouldn't be able to be a pilot there (medical reasons among others). That is all

I am aware of this fact, and that's partially why I find your position here so incredible. You are - more than most - aware of what she's up against - yet you advocate for her return. That's the part I don't get. Seeking asylum through formal application is a legal form of immigration, too.

But. Whatever. I don't have to get it. It's not the first time I've been mystified by the position of someone on JC and it won't be the last.

Ugh. I'm hesitant to wade in to this at all because of course I'm sympathetic to her plight (as I suspect everyone is to one degree or another). But I think it's maybe worth mentioning that fighting for THIS country seems to have been Plan B. I don't have any answers on this one. Obviously, it's very brave to step up and risk everything that she's risked already. On the other hand, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean very much if you get to reassess based on the current climate.

Sure it was plan B, but at least it's a plan B that brings something to the table. And I think the circumstances - THESE circumstances anyway - merit that reassessment.

 

[mrivc211]

This is a topic that probably deserves its own thread, but it's in context so I think it's okay here.

The GAO as well as members of HASC and SASC have looked really hard at this kind of problem. There is zero maintenance culture in Afghanistan. They'll use something until it breaks and then toss it aside - the idea of repairing or even doing preventive maintenance has to be taught and hammered in as a separate discipline.

The US had considered equipping the Afghans with a CAS-type of aircraft they could operate themselves - even something like a Super Tucano was ruled out because it was believed the Afghans would simply kill themselves trying to operate and maintain it. Someone posited that something like a deHavilland Beaver would be about as complex as they could handle and even that wouldn't last long. Not because they're not intelligent or stupid or somehow mentally deficient, but because there simply isn't an idea of maintaining/fixing things - they just don't do that. Boggles the mind, yeah?

I was born in Afghanistan. I'm a pilot. I have 5 type ratings. I'm also enrolled in A&P school. You sure you wanna lump all Afghans in the same boat?

 

[Boris Badenov]

IYou sure you wanna lump all Afghans in the same boat?

Your average Afghan doesn't have your avatar. You win, sir.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Wow @MikeD I'm horrified. I had no idea any of the above was happening. But not really surprised either, due to often times strict gender separation of Islamic culture, and the open access to those of your same gender. But there is simply no excuse for wide spread pedophilia. Inexcusable.

You should look into "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan"

 

[MikeD]

Wow @MikeD I'm horrified. I had no idea any of the above was happening. But not really surprised either, due to often times strict gender separation of Islamic culture, and the open access to those of your same gender. But there is simply no excuse for wide spread pedophilia. Inexcusable.

And by pulling the political bullcrap we have with "don't intervene", we have essentially sanctioned it.

When their own government/military/police personnel are oppressing them in this way, and then we the USA.....the liberators and freedom bringers.........do nothing; how again do we expect to win over any hearts and minds?

 

[killbilly]

I was born in Afghanistan. I'm a pilot. I have 5 type ratings. I'm also enrolled in A&P school. You sure you wanna lump all Afghans in the same boat?

Well. That completely makes everything I wrote up there wrong then, doesn't it?

I say this in good faith - I am glad of these things for you. I aspire to those levels of experience.

The maintenance issues I described weren't about you, but rather specific behavior within the military institutions. They weren't my conclusions, and they certainly weren't arrived at lightly. And I think you knew that.

 

[mrivc211]

You should look into "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan"

Well. That completely makes everything I wrote up there wrong then, doesn't it?

I say this in good faith - I am glad of these things for you. I aspire to those levels of experience.

The maintenance issues I described weren't about you, but rather specific behavior within the military institutions. They weren't my conclusions, and they certainly weren't arrived at lightly. And I think you knew that.

I know. I was just trolling in good faith

 

[killbilly]

I know. I was just trolling in good faith

I'm just flopping around in the boat now, aren't I?





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