Fatal crash at PDK

PeanuckleCRJ said:
With that said (and the apparent correct "ready to go" response time), it's something I'm going to make sure is passed through to our instructor group, and hopefully the rest of the airline. Most in duress situations assume that CFR is out there and on freq much quicker. I'll be starting a timer on our on fire aborts and demonstrating how it will more likely play out.
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I don't know if you saw this thread from before, it's from my last CFR recurrent training me and my contract-company members/firefighters had to attend. There are some interesting observations I write about crash-rescue, what it is we do, how we operate tactics/strategy-wise, and what we're truly able to do......especially as it comes to actually rescuing persons from an airliner-type aircraft, as Post #7 details. Good stuff to pass on to the airline, and can discuss here, in that thread, or in PM if you have any questions.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/cfr-arff.205728/
 
Mike, I'm not faulting them- you seem to be hanging up on that. I initially was, but you've corrected that. They were staged and ready to go as they had just been putting out flames from pyrotechnics in the previous display. They clearly did a fine job, and apparently he was already dead anyways.

I will maintain that it was shocking how long it took for a crew posted literally right there to get water on the fire. That is something we all need to understand- they cannot and will not be there immediately like we assume. We typically assume that crews will be there in just a few moments in the air carrier world. That notion is allowed to persist in simulations, and as someone responsible for that, it became explicitly clear that I need to help lead that change.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Mike, I'm not faulting them- you seem to be hanging up on that. I initially was, but you've corrected that. They were staged and ready to go as they had just been putting out flames from pyrotechnics in the previous display. They clearly did a fine job, and apparently he was already dead anyways.

I will maintain that it was shocking how long it took for a crew posted literally right there to get water on the fire. That is something we all need to understand- they cannot and will not be there immediately like we assume. We typically assume that crews will be there in just a few moments in the air carrier world. That notion is allowed to persist in simulations, and as someone responsible for that, it became explicitly clear that I need to help lead that change.
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No no, not hanging up on that. In the sense that you understand the correction. Sadly however, your initial observation and the sense of how long things take in shock-situations like that, is probably something shared by many casual observers who (no fault of their own) don't realize the actual truth. Unfortunate, but it happens. I know you realize it and appreciate the open mind to it.

That's the only thing I don't know of the crew specifically: what actual state of readiness they were in.

Truthfully, it shouldn't take too long in an airshow-type situation for a crash response to occur, as there ideally should be at least one truck at or near show-center with the crew inside and geared up, minus maybe helmet/gloves or other items that can be easily/quickly donned enroute. That's the ideal. Other fire trucks can be at a lesser state of readiness in terms of being out there and with crews outside the truck and such watching the show or being on display themselves; but that's the only thing I don't know of this event.....what was the readiness of the crews and did they have any hinderances of any kind in getting to the scene? It would be interesting to hear the debrief on that and lessons learned (there's always lessons learned).

Like I said, in terms of when CFR can arrive, there are so many factors involved in that when it comes to an unannounced emergency. With an announced emergency, response time generally isn't a factor, as they're staged and waiting for you. Guys just need to understand the unannounced situation, that it could indeed take the full 3 minutes.....maybe more if there are hinderances of any kind (low visibility on the airfield, etc). Landing accident, RTO, ground collision, fire at the terminal......all of these unannounced emergencies....expect the worst-case, that it may take the full time to get help to you. But its great that you will be briefing guys on this, because indeed it's something that's not understood by the vast majority of pilots.......only because it's not really on their radar of things they need to know for their daily job, but it's extremely good to know in order to be prepared as best as possible, and if at all possible try and help CFR help you to the max extent (when able).
 
Well put, Mike.

The really shocking thing was that they had literally just completed taking care of pyrotechnics displays and were within a few hundred feet (I'd estimate 500, 700 at the most) of where the plane came to rest. It's not that they were just center show, they were literally right there and had just finished operations.

I know I left that detail out- it's a bit to process, but that was another factor.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Well put.

The really shocking thing was that they had literally just completed taking care of pyrotechnics displays and were within a few hundred feet (I'd estimate 500, 700 at the most) of where the plane came to rest.

It's not that they were just center show, they were literally right there and had just finished operations.
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Unfortunately, mistakes do get made. We saw that with the airshow crash at SUU the other year. Why there wasn't a quick-attack truck staged and ready at or near show center, I don't know and can't explain. The time from impact to fire attack, shouldn't have taken as long as it did. For some reason, the airshow organizers decided to have Travis AFB CFR at the "unannounced" level of readiness (the lowest state), when there was an active airshow in progress and the very high potential for a crash. I can't explain that.

 
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Sorry, I edited my post after you quoted it.

And yes they do make mistakes... on the flying side and the CFR side. The key is to make this a learning experience. By describing this as a "shocking" amount of time, I mean that in our application in training. CFR was literally on top of the plane and already prepped and it took that long.

We literally do not train anything but immediate CFR response on the pilot side at any carrier I've seen.

Virtually 100% of the time in the sim, about the time the high speed aborting plane on fire is coming to a stop, the CA is already "telling CFR what to be looking for and asking for a response." Let's just say the light has been turned on.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Sorry, I edited my post after you quoted it.

And yes they do make mistakes... on the flying side and the CFR side. The key is to make this a learning experience. By describing this as a "shocking" amount of time, I mean that in our application in training. We literally do not train that on the pilot side at any carrier I've seen. And that is at an air carrier operation where they are supposed to be there.
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Agreed.

Virtually 100% of the time in the sim, about the time the high speed aborting plane on fire is coming to a stop, the CA is already "telling CFR what to be looking for and asking for a response." Let's just say the light has been turned on.
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I'm glad the Captain is thinking about that, as it shows he's thinking. Only problem is, CFR hasn't instantly morphed to on scene :D Seriously though, it's not something that's thought of......it's no fault of any aircrew member who doesn't know better, because the assumption is that they're there.

It's different at different airports, which is really the case. You can expect that if you, for example, are doing a military charter to a military base, there's often a "post up" CFR truck somewhere near the runway when the base's air operations are in progress.

At other airports.... not so much. And even at other air bases, there's more concerning issues. I'll expand on those when I get back from my patrol I have to leave on right now......
 
MikeD said:
I'm glad the Captain is thinking about that, as it shows he's thinking. Only problem is, CFR hasn't instantly morphed to on scene :D Seriously though, it's not something that's thought of......it's no fault of any aircrew member who doesn't know better, because the assumption is that they're there.

It's different at different airports, which is really the case. You can expect that if you, for example, are doing a military charter to a military base, there's often a "post up" CFR truck somewhere near the runway when the base's air operations are in progress.

At other airports.... not so much. And even at other air bases, there's more concerning issues. I'll expand on those when I get back from my patrol I have to leave on right now......
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That's a standard of our training to be looking for that! I've started timers in the past actually just seeing how quickly crews think things should play out and not responding if its stupid quick, but like most generally give them kudos for reaching out.

I'll do my best from this going forward to see if I can make this practice change. Thanks again for the excellent details on the "other side" of the operation.

After every accident, I always make it a point to learn from their situation (I'm additionally curious as to what cause him to spin in- I think he might have been trying to make up time and got in an unanticipated spin via Bob's visual report). That is how we honor the dead: learn, improve, and respect.

Oh, and if you wreck a plane doing something really stupid but live- we can make fun of you. :)
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
That's a standard of our training to be looking for that! I've started timers in the past actually just seeing how quickly crews think things should play out and not responding if its stupid quick, but like most generally give them kudos for reaching out.

I'll do my best from this going forward to see if I can make this practice change. Thanks again for the excellent details on the "other side" of the operation.

After every accident, I always make it a point to learn from their situation (I'm additionally curious as to what cause him to spin in- I think he might have been trying to make up time and got in an unanticipated spin via Bob's visual report). That is how we honor the dead: learn, improve, and respect.

Oh, and if you wreck a plane doing something really stupid but live- we can make fun of you. :)
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There are many things to think about when running guys through scenarios like this. Such as "I'm going to call CFR and have them check for smoke/fire/overheat on the brakes". Ok, good call. What frequency are you going to talk to them on? Are you going to request one from ATC? It won't be on tower.......ATC still has all their other traffic to contend with there. Might be on ground if not too busy. Chances are it will be a discreet frequency that if ATC doesn't give to you, you'll need to inquire.

Also, and I know stuff like this seems obvious...but in the heat of the moment it can easily fall by the wayside, when you're talking to CFR, try not to make aircraft movements without requesting permission to first (none should really be required, but just in case).. Checking for hot brakes for example, there's been instances where CFR is underneath using the thermal camera to get brake temps (if not already equipped such as with Airbus) and checking the general condition of the underside of the bird, and the Capt for whatever reason decided to just start taxiing, and calls ground to do so.....with guys still underneath who don't realize what's going on until the engines start powering up. Since those events, CFR will now generally park a truck in front of the emergency aircraft, facing it, in order to be ready to quickly go into action for any fire need, but also to be a physical block of "don't move please, we have people underneath". :)
 
@PeanuckleCRJ you'll enjoy this. For your military contract flights, depending on where you go, certain bases may or may not be able to support you adequately with CFR protection. For example Luke AFB, AZ. Here's one from the DOD IFR Supplement: Hope you're lucky and don't have an emergency and have to divert into there, west of PHX. Depending on the particular emergency, the CFR/ARFF there (Luke is a fighter base with F-16/F-35) may or may not be able to help you. Here's a pic I took of the information for Luke AFB from the IFR Supp ( just like the civilian Airport Facilities Directory).

In the bottom of "RSTD" or Restrictions section of the Remarks. The reason is because of the limited ARFF vehicles due to it being a fighter base that doesn't get many, if at all, heavy aircraft:

"Reduced firefighting and rescue capabilities for KC-135 and larger [aircraft]. Severe risk [of] loss: Firefighting forces cannot be expected to extinguish interior fire or successful rescue OPS [operations]. Only limited exterior firefighting can be performed. "

Buyer Beware. Looks like they can only successfully fight USAF Aircraft Category 3 and below, aircraft

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Sad to see this.. RIP Greg.. My daughter and I last year at the Greenwood Lake Airshow in Jersey. He had an amazing performance and was a super nice guy.
 
MikeD said:
@PeanuckleCRJ you'll enjoy this. For your military contract flights, depending on where you go, certain bases may or may not be able to support you adequately with CFR protection. For example Luke AFB, AZ. Here's one from the DOD IFR Supplement: Hope you're lucky and don't have an emergency and have to divert into there, west of PHX. Depending on the particular emergency, the CFR/ARFF there (Luke is a fighter base with F-16/F-35) may or may not be able to help you. Here's a pic I took of the information for Luke AFB from the IFR Supp ( just like the civilian Airport Facilities Directory).

In the bottom of "RSTD" or Restrictions section of the Remarks. The reason is because of the limited ARFF vehicles due to it being a fighter base that doesn't get many, if at all, heavy aircraft:

"Reduced firefighting and rescue capabilities for KC-135 and larger [aircraft]. Severe risk [of] loss: Firefighting forces cannot be expected to extinguish interior fire or successful rescue OPS [operations]. Only limited exterior firefighting can be performed. "

Buyer Beware. Looks like they can only successfully fight USAF Aircraft Category 3 and below, aircraft

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Funny you mention LAFB. I did many EMS standbys out there for Luke Days over the years and in addition to the Luke fire trucks there were at least 4-5 civilian trucks (including Hazmat) from surrounding agencies as well as an additional Foam truck from Phoenix Fire. We drilled out there quite a bit on CFR Ops and even with our simulated aircraft down exercises it still took units about 90-120 seconds to reach the scene. We pretty much had to wait for directive from Incident Command before we moved a wheel. They highly frowned upon crews freelancing and just taking off towards the scene especially because we were operating on the AOA.
 
ouch. At least the announcer wasn't dumb enough to announce Pilot error right away, like that idiot announcer at Cozumel, Mexico crash a couple of weeks ago. Same manouver. RIP and sorry to see this
 
MaRiO FDZ said:
ouch. At least the announcer wasn't dumb enough to announce Pilot error right away, like that idiot announcer at Cozumel, Mexico crash a couple of weeks ago. Same manouver. RIP and sorry to see this
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The announcers are traffic reporters, so they knew better from experience. I am pretty sure they knew the pilot as well, which couldn't have been easy.
 
MaRiO FDZ said:
ouch. At least the announcer wasn't dumb enough to announce Pilot error right away, like that idiot announcer at Cozumel, Mexico crash a couple of weeks ago. Same manouver. RIP and sorry to see this
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Yeah the announcer is Scott Slade, kind of a legend among ATL reporters and a private pilot as well.
 
MaRiO FDZ said:
ouch. At least the announcer wasn't dumb enough to announce Pilot error right away, like that idiot announcer at Cozumel, Mexico crash a couple of weeks ago. Same manouver. RIP and sorry to see this
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Nothing earth shattering here, but I have flown that Extra with the previous owner. Kind of sucked to see that. Another tail number in the logbook gone.
 
mastermags said:
Yeah the announcer is Scott Slade, kind of a legend among ATL reporters and a private pilot as well.
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My jab is at the Announcer in Cozumel, actually. Thankfully people here in the states who do aviation are way more Sensitive and open minded.
 
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