FAR Help

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Heres why I say no....

61.195b A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating

61.195c A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

Also take a look at 61.1 which defines flight training as any training received in flight in an aircraft. Combine that with 61.195 and it seems a definite no to me.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine how silly you'd look showing up at an airline interview with 200 multi, 200 multi dual-given no multi dual received, and no multi PIC?? (Not even sure how that last one would work...)...???
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
Okay, just to add some questions to the fray...for instrument training you need to shoot single engine approaches; if you take the checkride then you will have to shoot a single engine approach, so how are you not giving ME dual?? If you are just giving instrument training, then you are not doing the student any justice as an instructor...you are milking him/her for ME time.

Just my opinions, mostly.
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
This may be helpful. I'll quote it verbatim for your reference:[ QUOTE ]
QUESTION: What are the privileges held by a CFI - Instrument Airplane “only” (no single or multiengine rating) on his CFI with respect to instructing instrument procedures in a multi-engine airplane. He has multi-engine rating on his commercial certificate. Can he, while instructing instruments, simulate engine failure? Can he demonstrate VMC? Can he simulate engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of VMC? Etc.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f); Per § 61.193(f), a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to an Instrument Airplane rating. And per § 61.195(f), in pertinent part, states a flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane. These sections 61.193(f) and 61.195(f) are the only regulatory requirements that even remotely addresses your question.

Since training on the Vmc maneuver and procedure is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may NOT give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.

Since the training on the simulating engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of Vmc is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may NOT give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.

However, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f) that apply. There is nothing that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating and has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane per § 61.195(f) from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument Airplane rating.

Likewise, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f), that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument Airplane rating.

Unfortunately, Part 61 and every other rule does not regulate judgment! I can't imagine an owner of an aircraft or an insurance company ever allowing rental of their multiengine airplane to a person who does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his/her flight instructor certificate when that person intends to give training on engine inoperative maneuvers.

The following are the areas of operation and tasks that relate to an Instrument Airplane rating. A person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may provide training on the following areas of operation and tasks that are associated with an Instrument-Airplane rating:

I. Preflight preparation
A. Weather information
B. Cross-country flight planning
II. Preflight procedures
A. Aircraft systems related to IFR operations
B. Aircraft flight instruments and navigation equipment
C. Instrument cockpit check
III. Air traffic control clearances and procedures
A. Air traffic control clearances
B. Compliance with departure, en route, and arrival procedures and clearances
C. Holding procedures
IV. Flight by reference to instruments
A. Straight-and-level flight
B. Change of airspeed
C. Constant airspeed climbs and descents
D. Rate climbs and descents
E. Timed turns to magnetic compass headings
F. Steep turns
G. Recovery from unusual flight attitudes
V. Navigation systems
Intercepting and tracking navigational systems and DME arcs
VI. Instrument approach procedures
A. Nonprecision instrument approach
B. Precision ILS instrument approach
C. Missed approach
D. Circling approach
E. Landing from a straight-in or circling approach
VII. Emergency operations
A. Loss of communications
B. One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)
C. One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)
D. Loss of gyro attitude and/or heading indicators
VIII. Postflight procedures
Checking instruments and equipment
{Q&A-457}


[/ QUOTE ]
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
This is a question that comes up from time to time and the common wisdom has been that a CFI with only an "instrument airplane" rating, but no "airplane" rating is permitted to provide instrument training in an airplane, so long as he doesn't cross the line into teaching how to fly the airplane itself.

From Jeff's post, even John Lynch's Part 61 FAQ has taken this view, saying such things as a CFII with no MEI =can't= give training in one-engine failure during takeoff but =can= give instruction in single-engine operations under instrument conditions.

Finally, as a result of an inquiry by Ron Levy, an instructor at the University of Maryland and a regular contributor to Aviation Safety Magazine, the Eastern Region FAA legal counsel has started the process of putting that one to rest.

The ultimate answer is, no, a CFII with a commercial single and multi (No MEI) can =not= I give instrument instruction to a student in a Multi-engine aircraft who already has his private multi.

The response for the counsel is posted below. It takes a bit of wading to get through it since it goes off on a completely different question. The pertinent part appears in the final few paragraphs.

==============================
JAN 6 2004

Capt Ronald B. Levy
Director, Aviation Sciences Program
University of Maryland Eastern Shore
30806 University Boulevard South
Princess Anne, MD 21853-1299

Dear Capt. Levy:

This responds to your request for an interpretation of 14 CFR § 61.195 pertaining to the providing of instrument instruction. You have raised your disagreement with information contained in the FAA web site maintained by flight Standards (specifically, AFS-840) where answers are provided to frequently asked questions (FAQs). We apologize for the delay in providing this response to you and appreciate your patience.

Your question concerns the response given on the Flight Standards website (http://www1.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAO.doc) in “Q&A-249.” The question posed and the answer from AFS-840 are as follows:

QUESTION: The flight review requirements of § 61.56(a) requires [sic] 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training which includes a review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 and a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate. If the person getting the flight review holds an Instrument-Airplane rating on his certificate does the review have to be given by a CFI-IA and include instrument procedures such as radial intercepts, approaches, etc.? Can a CFI-A (but no Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI) give the flight review to the instrument rated pilot and can that CFI cover any instrument maneuvers such as those that might be given to a Private pilot under 61.107?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193 and § 61.195(c); You're incorrectly mixing up the flight review requirements of § 61.56(c) with the Instrument Proficiency Check § 61.57(d). They are two separate requirements. But if you're asking whether a CFI-ASE only can administer the Instrument Proficiency Check of § 61.57(d), the answer is no. The flight instructor must hold a CFII-Airplane rating to administer the Instrument Proficiency Check of § 61.57(d). {Q&A-249}

We view, as the response acknowledges, the above dialogue as involving two distinct matters. The first concerns the requisite qualifications of the person conducting a flight review under 14 CFR § 61.56(c). Section 61.193(g) provides that a flight instructor, within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings, may conduct the flight review. Since maneuvers and procedures necessary for the flight are at the instructor's discretion, see 61.56(a)(2), they need not include instrument maneuvers and procedures. The flight review may be combined with an instrument proficiency check if warranted, see 61.56(h), in which case the instructor must hold the appropriate authorization, see 61.57(d)(2)(iv), 61.195. Accordingly, the person conducting the flight review need only have instructor-airplane privileges (CFI-A). Instrument instructor qualifications (instructor-instrument/airplane, or CFI-IA) are not necessary, even if maneuvers are performed “under the hood” since a flight review is not flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or type rating, see 61.195(c).

The second matter concerns the requisite qualifications of the person conducting the instrument proficiency examination under 14 CFR § 61.57(d). Since the proficiency check is an operation related to instrument flying, under 61.193(f) an instructor-instrument rating (CFI-IA) is needed, even though the proficiency check does not constitute training toward an instrument or type rating (see 61.195(d)).

Considering the context of the response, we do not read it as indicating that a CFI-A may give instrument training in flight without holding instrument authorization (CFI-IA) as per § 61.193. Flight training is defined as training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft (14 CFR § 61.1(b)(6)). Training can only be logged if provided by an instructor authorized to provide the specific training. Any instrument procedures conducted with a CFI-A during a flight review may be appropriate at the discretion of the instructor but do not qualify and may not be logged as training.

Your related question deals with the qualifications to provide instrument training corresponding to the category and class of the aircraft. As you point out, § 61.195(b) provides, “A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and (2) if appropriate, a type rating.” You have indicated that some persons hold the belief that the possession of a CFI-IA authorizes the holder to provide instrument training without regard to the class rating held, a belief you do not share.

In construing § 61.195(b), we must rely on the plain language since it appears to be unambiguous and we are not aware of any agency-condoned practices that deviate. Section 61.195(b) refers specifically to category and class, as you have pointed out. The category of aircraft is airplane, but the class can consist of, for example, single engine, multiengine, land, and water (sea), as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. As provided in 61.195(b), to provide flight training, the instructor must bold both a pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate with the category and class rating applicable to the training being provided. For example, an instructor must hold a pilot certificate and an instructor certificate, each with an airplane multiengine instrument rating, to give instrument training in a twin airplane. We do not construe Q&A-249 as indicating any other position.

I trust that this response satisfactorily answers your question. Should you need any further clarification, please contact Stephen Brice in this office at 718 553-3268.

Sincerely,

Loretta E. Alkalay

==============================
Scott Dennstaedt, a CFI and writer out of Maryland, followed up with John Lynch. Part of Lynch's reply to Scott:

==============================
Looking at § 61.195(c), I now believe my answer is wrong and Ms. Alkalay's answer is correct. Because, per § 61.195(c), it states: ". . . must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."
==============================
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
I think FAA Legal Counsel has interpreted the regulations correctly, the way they were written. That is why I was always confused as to why Lynch gave some of the answers he did in his FAQ (and there are more on this topic than just the one reproduced above), and why I am still confused as to why the FAA will issue a CFII with no aircraft rating on it at all.

The brings me to something Counsel said in the letter. It said the he did not know of any agency-condoned practice to suggest a different interpretation. I beg to differ. The issuance of a CFII with no aircraft rating is an agency-condoned practice that makes no sense, if the CFII cannot give any flight training without the appropriate category and class on his flight instructor certificate. The only way it would make sense is if the agency believed that instrument instruction could be given without category and class.

Additionally, although they don't see any inconsistency in this particular question in the FAQ, there are more questions in the FAQ which do suggest a contradiction on this matter.

I hope they figure this one out and make it clear. I personally think that the FAA should NOT issue CFII without an aircraft rating on it. It should only be possible to get a CFI with ASE or AME on it first, and make the Instrument an add-on only, just like the pilot certificate.

Ray
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
and why I am still confused as to why the FAA will issue a CFII with no aircraft rating on it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]The CFI-I with no aircraft rating can do instrument ground instruction and instrument training in a sim/FTD while still pursuing a flight instructor, rather than ground instructor path.
 
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