FAR Help

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
So so of the CFI's at my school were debating this today lets get some opinions.

Here is the situation. I am a CFII with a commercial single and multi (No MEI)...can I give instrument instruction to a student in a Multi-engine aircraft who already has his private multi?

My answer is no because I do not have an MEI.....some of them answered yes I could because I was not giving him multi-engine instruction, just IFR stuff....and my boss who is the DE for the area agreed. What do you guys think?
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
I think there was a discussion about this on jetcareers some time ago. I'd do a search on it. I am positive you can give instruction in a multi without being a MEI since you aren't giving multi instruction. But I ? this, does the student then have to be multi rated?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
I say no, a CFII cannot give instruction in a multi unless they are also an MEI, based on this:

-----------------------------------------------
91.195(b). Aircraft Ratings.

A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

1.) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with applicable category and class ratings....<snip> (Emphasis added)
-------------------------------------------------

I used to think that a CFII could give training in a multi as long as they held a multiengine class rating on their commercial certificate, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Though as with the rest of them, I suppose the above FAR could be interpreted in different ways.

MidlifeFlyer- I'd be interested to hear your take on this...you seem to be an FAR guru.
 

PilotGuy37

New Member
The way I am interpreting the FAR on the subject is Yes, you may give instrument instruction in a multi with out being a multi instructor. You are not actually teaching the operation of the plane, just the proper use of the instruments. What the FAR states is that a instructor may not give FLIGHT training in a multi if the instructor in not a MEI. It appears that the student is already Multi rated, so no need to be teaching the Flight portion, just instruments. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt if a FSDO inspector wouldn't have a field day with a guy with dual-given in a PA-44 without an MEI.

Having dealt with the FAA, unless you can afford thousands of dollars for a lawyer to defend your certificate in court, I certainly wouldn't suggest acting as an MEI without an MEI no matter what the interpretation.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
The FAA issues a CFII without ASE or AME ratings on it.
Taking the argument that you cannot conduct Instrument training in an AME because you don't have the appropriate category and class to its logical conclusion: a CFII without ASE or AME is therefore totally useless, so why would the FAA issue it?

The Part 61 and 141 FAQ (NOT regulatory, but very helpful in understanding how the FAA interprets its own rules) backs this up, referring to 14 CFR 61.195(c):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

61.195(b) is titled Aircraft Ratings. (c) is titled Instrument Rating, so although the wording in 61.195(b) seems to prohibit an instructor from doing any instruction in an aircraft which he doesn't hold approp. cat and class on his CFI, 61.195(c) speaks more directly to the situation, and the FAA interprets it in that fashion too.

If it's ONLY instrument training, then ONLY a CFI-IA is required. I'm not going to copy the relevant portion of the Part 61 FAQ, but it is available on the FAA website.

Ray
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt if a FSDO inspector wouldn't have a field day with a guy with dual-given in a PA-44 without an MEI.

Having dealt with the FAA, unless you can afford thousands of dollars for a lawyer to defend your certificate in court, I certainly wouldn't suggest acting as an MEI without an MEI no matter what the interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that if you're only teaching instruments, you're not acting as an MEI, you're acting as a CFII. I'd say the case is cut and dried ok if you're teaching instruments to someone with a Private Multi already.

I admit that it might raise a few eyebrows if you're only teaching instruments to a student who has no multi rating yet at all, but there's nothing the FAA can really do about it, since they issue CFII without any aircraft ratings on them all the time.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say the case is cut and dried ok if you're teaching instruments to someone with a Private Multi already.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, again on the basis of 91.195(b):

A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

1.) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with applicable category and class ratings....<snip>

I think paragraph (c) is just stating the obvious. The FAA does that sometimes, ya know?


I could certainly be wrong though.
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
If we're going to argue that you don't need an MEI to give instrument instruction in a twin, then would you really need a multi rating? You're not instructing them how to fly a twin and as long as you don't have to take control of the airplane you would be legal under this argument.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
If the FAA had not interpreted itself to the contrary (which it has) and if they did not issue a CFII without ASE or AME ratings on it (which they do), then I would be inclined to agree with you. Additionally, if the FAA did not discuss instrument training at all in (c) then I would also agree, that (b) is controlling. However since:

1. The FAA issues CFII without AME and ASE.

2. They interpret the rules to allow instrument instruction without approp cat and class on CFI.

3. They do have a paragraph that specifically addresses instrument flight training.

Then despite the fact that the wording in 61.195(b) seems to be prohibitive, I think the FAA itself would argue that since the section is entitled "aircraft ratings" that the language included in that paragraph is meant only to prohibit training for issuance of an aircraft rating without holding the approp. cat and class on the CFI. I know the wording seems to be broader, and is not the best, but given that the preponderance of the evidence lends itself towards the more permissive interpretation, I don't think you'll find ANY FAA inspector that will even try an enforcement action against anyone for giving instrument instruction in a multi without an MEI. And if they did try, I'm almost positive they'd be blown off by their own legal department before they could get anywhere with it.

Ray
 

250blue

New Member
Sticky one. However, I took my CFII ride in a single engine airplane and I did not have a CFI Single Engine Certificate. I only had my MEI (I took the MEI, CFII, then SEI).
 

250blue

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
If we're going to argue that you don't need an MEI to give instrument instruction in a twin, then would you really need a multi rating? .

[/ QUOTE ]

You definitely need to hold a multiengine rating (I'm not talking about an MEI), because they are under the hood and you are acting as safety pilot. To do so, you need to be rated and current in the aircraft.
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
Thsi topic came up at our flight school as well, and the general consensus was that you could not give Instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI and we found this question in the FAA FAQ's that actually supported this...I am looking for that right now...
 

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
I would not give any form of ME training without a MEI... that's like saying you can act as PIC in a multi engine airplane without a MEL with only once engine running.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Thsi topic came up at our flight school as well, and the general consensus was that you could not give Instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI and we found this question in the FAA FAQ's that actually supported this...I am looking for that right now...

[/ QUOTE ]

To make it even more confusing, there's two questions that deal with this topic in particular. In one, the FAQ says it's ok, the other it says it's not. The only difference between the 2 situations is that in the second situation, the CFI did not hold a multi-engine rating on either his Pilot Certificate or his Flight Instructor Certificate, whereas in the first situaiton, he did have AMEL on only his Pilot Certificate. Where John Lynch comes up with the interpretation that it's ok not to have it on the CFI, but you MUST have it on your Pilot Certificate, I don't know. The only thing I think of to back it up would be as was mentioned above: There's no way to conduct bona fide instrument training without the CFI being rated in the aircraft because he's either a safety pilot in simulated conditions or acting PIC in actual conditions. However, Mr. Lynch doesn't cite this as reason for his interpretation, so I don't know what the deal is.

Ray
 
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